Vandals strike candidates’ homes, in a poisoned political era
October 23rd, 2008 – 8:29 AMOur political officeholders are real people who live in real neighborhoods. Like the rest of us, they occasionally enjoy a stroll with the family, a backyard barbecue, or some downtime on the back porch.
Now they’ll have to consider taking new security measures in their private lives. Yesterday, the Star Tribune reported the reason:
When Laurie Coleman, wife of U.S. Sen. Norm Coleman, hauled her trash to the alley at 7:30 this morning, a chilling sight greeted her.
Spray-painted in black on the wooden siding of the garage in the couple’s Summit Hill neighborhood, in letters nearly a foot high: “U R A CRIMINAL RESIGN OR ELSE! PSALM 2″On the alley side, each double-bay stall door had the word “SCUM” spray painted in black ink, as a did a wooden partition in between.
Also vandalized in similar fashion: U.S. Sen Amy Klobuchar and U.S. Reps. Keith Ellison, John Kline, Michele Bachmann and Jim Ramstad. Klobuchar and Ellison are Democrats; Coleman, Kline, Bachmann and Ramstad, Republicans.
The non-partisan nature of these attacks was novel, and the intrusion on the private lives of these public servants unprecedented.
But the venemous tone of the spray-painted messages was familiar.
In decades past, Americans often disagreed strongly with their political leaders, but they did so in civil debate.
Today, a new coarseness permeates our public life. We no longer view our political opponents as merely wrong or misguided — now they’re “liars.” Radio talk shows and blogs spew invective at political leaders, while the parties themselves scheme to “criminalize” the public policy actions of their opponents.
At the Republican National Convention in September, we took things several steps farther. When anarchists tried to trash our cities – claiming that outrage at our leaders justified their actions — many of us bent over backwards to ensure that they had more civil rights protections and legal support than the ordinary man on the street.
Don’t get me wrong – it’s crucial to hold political leaders to a high standard. It’s imperative to point out their foibles, and to disagree with what we view as misguided policies. But the coarse, bitter and hyperbolic tone of today’s political arena poses a real threat to our common life as democratic citizens.
161 Responses to "Vandals strike candidates’ homes, in a poisoned political era"
“In decades past, Americans often disagreed strongly with their political leaders, but they did so in civil debate.”
Really? What exactly have you been smoking this morning? Tell that to the Kennedy’s. Maybe Bill Ayers wasnt really trying to blow up the penatagon?
Man alive. Spray painting houses and being ignorant enough to believe what you hear on talk radio does not come even close to assasinations, college campus riots, calling out the National Gaurd, brutal police squashing of civil rights marches, race riots in inner cities.
What was worse KK, Kent State, Chicago in ‘68, or some spray paint on a few gagares in ‘08?
Really, Katherine? *You* are calling for civility? That’s rich! Look through your old columns, then cast that stone.
Thanks for the morning laugh.
“But the coarse, bitter and hyperbolic tone of today’s political arena poses a real threat to our common life as democratic citizens.”
Plus the there’s no “Journalism” anymore. I frankly don’t know whose telling the truth anymore. Frankly there is no one telling the truth anymore.
Before I think we use to pick our party because they reflected our views. Now we reflect the views of the party. Even when we know those aren’t the views we hold. Then off we go as the “Little Surrogates of the Surrogates”. When we reach that point we become their fools, their puppets.
I said it before and I’ll say it again. Let’s go back to the days when no one cared about politics and we had low voter turn out. Today it’s just this game to see how many misinformed people you can get to vote for your candidate.
I’m afraid our elections have taken on the flavor of a Super Bowl.
433 I know that’s why I’m a big Nick Coleman fan. I can go read his columns and comments and be assured these no BS there.
Thanks for the morning laugh.
“The non-partisan nature of these attacks was novel”
I’m getting the impression that this was less a political statement, and more a teenage prank.
Unless it was Michael Blaine.
I’m afraid our elections have taken on the flavor of a Super Bowl.
And, apparently, anyone critical of your team automatically HAS to be on the oposition team.
“Unless it was Michael Blaine.”
Mthalo my understand is they are currently doing DNA on a soiled diaper left at the scene.
One officer was heard commenting “Its BM alright”
This is indeed a great morning laugh. Um, Katherine? The pot just told the kettle that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
“But the coarse, bitter and hyperbolic tone of today’s political arena poses a real threat to our common life as democratic citizens.”
Gosh, it’s almost as if there are IRRESPONSIBLE “columnists” who are have no compunction in writing divisive and fear-mongering pieces.
Foot-washing in colleges? A mention of Islam in an elementary school? HELP!
“Before I think we use to pick our party because they reflected our views. Now we reflect the views of the party. Even when we know those aren’t the views we hold. Then off we go as the “Little Surrogates of the Surrogates”. When we reach that point we become their fools, their puppets.”
Which is exactly why I will never join any party. When you’re a follower, all you do is spend your life looking up someone else’s ass.
“Gosh, it’s almost as if there are IRRESPONSIBLE “columnists” who are have no compunction in writing divisive and fear-mongering pieces.
Foot-washing in colleges? A mention of Islam in an elementary school?”
All things that many of us would be excited about if it was a Christian School.
Charter schools need to follow the rules. ALL CHARTER SCHOOLS.
In the end they where in violation and now know they have to follow the rules to.
So DyedRepublican today you are listed in the “Fool Category”.
Praying in colleges? A mention of [Christianity] in an elementary school?
I wonder what things will look like on 11/5.
Regardless of which side wins there’ll be crap flying everywhere.
Too bad it can’t be ‘let’s hope he does well’ .. sincerely.
Where’s that old coke commercial .. damn’t.
Greg, I’ll be saying that. Go Obama/McCain!!
“Go Obama/McCain!! ”
ObCain?
McBama?
BaraJohn?
… in perfect harmony ..
“Where’s that old coke commercial .. damn’t.”
Greg put the Coke back in the Coke and then maybe we’ll have perfect harmony ..
“Greg put the Coke back in the Coke and then maybe we’ll have perfect harmony ..”
Bolster a columbian trade agreement?
either that or .. ‘meet my little friend’.
pay attention to the persons name that put this on youtube….
One of the major problems is now on both sides we have these professional political people who attended the nomination conventions and drive the agenda. So what you get are these hard nose lefties and righties choosing the candidates. Plus the @ss kissing one has to do to get these people behind you leaves little room to compromise later on.
I think this is horrible. I really feel for these families.
People are angry, as evident at the RNC protests AND political rallies (Kill HIM has been heard at McCain/Palin Rallies). But this is just unacceptable.
If you’re angry…make sure to vote. If you’re angry…write a letter to the editor. If you’re angry…volunteer. But, there is no excuse for damaging somebody’s home and making people feel unsafe.
“Plus the @ss kissing one has to do to get these people behind you leaves little room to compromise later on.”
In other words, we don’t even own our elections any more.
Professional people .. Here’s a good one I just heard. Two of the ‘pro’s’ are talking about the whole clothing gig.
Pro1: How can she say she’s a hockey mom when she spends that much money on clothes?
Pro2: Well Obama has a Jet!!!
This is what it’s come to.
No wonder people get scared.
How about if you’re angry then get out and do something to make things better?
Just because your guy or gal isn’t sitting in the big chair doesn’t mean you can’t go out and do some good.
I suppose I’d have to add that you need to use some common sense as well since it’s that’s obviously in short supply.
Maybe we need to polute the planet with one very large bonfire of sticky .. fill all the ICBM’s with dorito’s and wait a few days.
Maybe some twinkies too.
One big coke commercial ..
How old do you guys think Odin is? I mean whats his deal anyway? Soci@lism gets tossed around a lot lately but man the John Locke natural Law 100% inheritence tax stuff is beyond. Its 2008 and he’s pulling poli sci theory out of the late 1600’s to make a point on modern tax policy. Only a macalester student sleeping with their professor would pull something like that. He has to be 18, 19 tops and is about to take his midterm in foundations of political theory course.
“very large bonfire of sticky”
I love that scene in Romancing the stone where Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner are getting backed in the back of a crashed drug running DC3 from a “cap fire”.
Mark, you keep calling Odin a “he.”
I would start with that one and then worry about it’s age.
baked in the back… Camp fire
“He has to be 18, 19 tops and is about to take his midterm in foundations of political theory course.”
I know a few people in their 50’s, one being a close friend, that cling to the “Marx was right, they just didn’t implement it correctly” credo.
They try very hard to cultivate an “academic” image.
Odin fits right into that mold, judging by the know-it-all tone of his comments.
Oh Did I mention to that people like Ann Cotter and the former Satirist Al Franken MAKE A FOURTUNE exploiting this divide and have a self-interesting in fostering it.
So does Michele Bachmann stay on the front page of the Strib until Nov 4 ?
She’s our own local “missing ammunition” figure this time around. Seriously I was going to leave her blank or go independent but this BS has me thinking I might circle the one by her name.
AND THAN people like Shrimp repeat things have been proven false as if they are true. THIS IS the biggest poison I see going on today. Hannity is a master of it SECOND only to Shrimp. BOTH ARE FOOLS
oh tiny-
You mean like the way you always repeat the “light bulb mandate” nonsense even though it’s been proven false numerous times?
I never thought I’d say this, but I agree with GHS’ 10:39 post. Well said.
“ND political rallies (Kill HIM has been heard at McCain/Palin Rallies).”
See the thing is to “get that lie out there” and let robots like Shrimp,True and dare2 spread it around until it becomes fact.
By the time it gets out that its all BS then its too late.
But still robots like Shrimp,True and dare2 will continue to spread it around.
Secret Service has stated No such thing occurred. But who am I to believe the Secret Service or godhateshrimp?
I feel bad that our legislators have been the subject of this nonsensical attack.
Call the politicians whatever you want on a blog but don’t mess with their houses for God’s sake.
Clear breach of the social contract.
It’s a reminder what a brave thing it is to stand up and seek elected office. I fear that the best among us may become more reluctant to serve the public knowing that there are nutters who might attack them for it.
John Locke? Give me a break….
“So does Michele Bachmann stay on the front page of the Strib until Nov 4 ?”
The photo in today’s article should have a caption contest associated with it.
My entry is “…but the guy I married has one like this”.
TINY GET MAAAAD, TINY SMASH THINGS.
“Secret Service has stated No such thing occurred. But who am I to believe the Secret Service or godhateshrimp?”
They didnt say it didnt happen only they couldnt prove it and only the one reporter heard it.
When KK states “The non-partisan nature of these attacks was novel, and the intrusion on the private lives of these public servants unprecedented” I wondered how similar this invasion of privacy and safety is similar to that of celebrities hounded by paparazzi. They, however, have to pay for further security on their own while we taxpayers will be footing the bill, most likely, for secret service protection. This doesn’t sit well with me. I feel bad about their houses being targeted but I don’t feel like we should pay for the protection (should it occur).
What I found most interesting is that KK rails against the uncivility of the act and says, “In decades past, Americans often disagreed strongly with their political leaders, but they did so in civil debate.” She then calls out bloggers and radio hosts on both sides for their part in changing the climate. What I want to know is whether she considers her part in this change of climate.
“You mean like the way you always repeat the “light bulb mandate” nonsense even though it’s been proven false numerous times?”
I know jcf817 I’ll stop making real things up.
“In Australia, sales of incandescent bulbs will be phased out by 2009. The European Union, Ireland, and Canada have announced plans to ban incandescent bulbs. he United States has also passed legislation increasing the efficiency standard required for light bulbs, which will effectively phase out incandes¬cents. In total, more than 40 countries have announced plans relating to the banning of incandescent lightbulbs.
California will phase out the use of incandescent bulbs by 2018 .”
“The photo in today’s article should have a caption contest associated with it.”
Five dollar foot long.
Godhatesshrimp BE DUMB godhatesshrimp SAY DUMB THINGS
jcf817 says “You mean like the way you always repeat the “light bulb mandate” nonsense even though it’s been proven false numerous times?”
Hey Bulb man how about “I was wrong” Tiny. Lets see some humility and some Nads.
man·date(mndt)
n.
1.An authoritative command or instruction.
“The photo in today’s article should have a caption contest associated with it.”
God I’m Dumb.
I remember it well Mark ..
As for Odin. Regardless of anything else, he needs to do something with current med schedule.
You mean like the way you always repeat the “light bulb mandate” nonsense even though it’s been proven false numerous times?
LIAR!!
KK is so right… It’s a terrible time when politicians aimlessly suggest their opponents are anti-american and “not like us..” such vile hate should be stopped!
Does anyone know what “messages” were spray-painted on the other(not Coleman’s) properties?
This is getting out of hand. I for one am looking forward to the end of this election season.
“This is getting out of hand.”
How about some prespective. KK cries wolf and you buy it?
If this is as bad as it gets Ill take it gladly. No pipe bombs, book depository buildings, water cannons, peter yarrow is no where to be found.
“This is getting out of hand.”
How about some prespective. KK cries wolf and you buy it?
If this is as bad as it gets Ill take it gladly. No pipe bombs, book depository buildings, water cannons, peter yarrow is no where to be found.
I know ttepley or when politicians aimlessly suggest half a state racists.
Don’t you think so ttepley?
God almighty we need to start a counter in here.
John Locke? Give me a break….
Amazing ignorance from someone who claims to have had a Poli Sci major. Locke’s Natural Law philosophy was cited by many of America’s founders as support for disbelieving in the divine right of kings to rule.
The rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness mentioned in the Declaration of Independence are natural rights. The U.S. Constitution is based on the NL philosophy that people have rights outside of society (in a State of Nature) and the government has to have a compelling reason when it limits or denies those rights.
Someone with a Poli Sci major should know this without being told. If you really majored in Poli Sci, I suggest you ) demand a refund. Obviously you (or more likely your parents) were shortchanged.
And this same kind of BS plays out with our candidates too. They will accuse the other guy of something that they KNOW they have done themselves. I’ve seen it and I find it remarkable that these supposedly intelligent people are saying it.
Example of a supposedly really dumb person;
“ttepley says: KK is so right… It’s a terrible time when politicians aimlessly suggest their opponents are anti-american and “not like us..” such vile hate should be stopped! “
Now I guess this is a shot at Michele Bachmann and its broad and condemning.
Yet this clown ttepley has to know we got a Nutcase in the Democratic Party calling half of his own State racists
Yet he says it anyway. Its just remarkable, unbelievable.
In decades past, Americans often disagreed strongly with their political leaders, but they did so in civil debate.
As when Jefferson’s paid flack wrote that Adams was “hermaphroditical”?
“Amazing ignorance from someone who claims to have had a Poli Sci major. Locke’s Natural Law philosophy was cited by many of America’s founders as support for disbelieving in the divine right of kings to rule.”
I know. Guess what? Its 2008.
“Someone with a Poli Sci major should know this without being told. If you really majored in Poli Sci, I suggest you ) demand a refund. Obviously you (or more likely your parents) were shortchanged.”
Yeah, I took that course at Mac too. Foundations of US Politics. You know the one that had Locke and Rousseau as asigned reading. But I do have to agree with you on one point. I was ripped off. Poli Sci is a totally useless degree in the REAL world. In a class room you might sound intellegent quoting people who’ve been dead 300 years, but today, in modern society, you’re a fool.
“The U.S. Constitution is based on the NL philosophy that people have rights outside of society (in a State of Nature) and the government has to have a compelling reason when it limits or denies those rights.”
So show me in the consitution where the rights of inheritence dont exist. People give society the right to make laws they live by. The right to inheritence is one of those. And dont give me some crap about Adam and God either.
If you can’t read and understand the legislation for yourself, how is that my fault?
Odin, what happens to family businesses and farms without inheritence? The govt comes and takes it away right?? And does what with it? Where is society now dumbass.
There is a difference between monarchy and a percieved divine right to rule 300 years ago and handing down the family business in 2008.
“God almighty we need to start a counter in here. ”
I haven’t seen a top 10 in awhile.
“I Like Ike says:
October 23rd, 2008 at 11:54 am
“This is getting out of hand.”
How about some prespective. KK cries wolf and you buy it?
If this is as bad as it gets Ill take it gladly. No pipe bombs, book depository buildings, water cannons, peter yarrow is no where to be found.”
I think if people take the time to find out where you live, damage your property and threaten you/your family it is out of hand.
Mark, I am glad you would take it gladly if it happend to you, but for some reason I doubt you would.
Christ jcf817 what isn’t true about that. I will be forced to buy florescent light bulbs. How difficult is that to see.
Thats a lot of lies below then
“In Australia, sales of incandescent bulbs will be phased out by 2009. The European Union, Ireland, and Canada have announced plans to ban incandescent bulbs. he United States has also passed legislation increasing the efficiency standard required for light bulbs, which will effectively phase out incandes¬cents. In total, more than 40 countries have announced plans relating to the banning of incandescent lightbulbs.
California will phase out the use of incandescent bulbs by 2018 .”
And you said this “oh tiny-
You mean like the way you always repeat the “light bulb mandate” nonsense even though it’s been proven false numerous times? ”
Which I guess was calling me a lair. But its you! Its you that stated the false charge. You are the lair.
Its pretty clear jcf817 you libeled me.
I think I’ll take you to blog court.
It’s good to see someone retained what they read. To bad they haven’t learned from it.
Scratch the 18 or 19. I’m thinking 17 over achiever that enjoys cleaning the bears out of the cave and eating them.
He needs a campfire… a BIG campfire.
“Mark, I am glad you would take it gladly if it happend to you, but for some reason I doubt you would.”
Het FYM, when high powered riffles start shooting out of boof depository windows or pipe bombs are blowing up cop cars, or water cannons are being used on demonstraitors, then Ill start to panic about the state of politics. Until then this is high school prank stuff.
“I think I’ll take you to blog court. ”
Tiny Litess, Esquire
So Odin is worried about a belief that divine rule might make a comeback and so he cites John Locke as a tax expert. The fabric of democracy today is at stake because 300 years ago, there was divine rule in Europe. Okay so lets tear out the fabric of american society and do away with inheritence rights because 300 years ago John Locke came up with an idea to prove that divine rule isnt a right in the Natural Law. Just a guess but on friday nights you sit and drink coffee in some independent coffee place somewhere over on summitt avenue all by yourself and read political theory and stroke your intelectual ego dont you?
So show me in the consitution where the rights of inheritence dont exist. People give society the right to make laws they live by. The right to inheritence is one of those. And dont give me some crap about Adam and God either.
At this point, I don’t believe you attended college, let alone majored in Poli Sci. How you’ve lived this long without learning to think is a mystery. You’ve become tiresome. I think I’ll stand over here now. (Cheers.)
And listen I don’t hear much about Global Warming these days. I think the scam is up.
Let’s see what we get from a democratic congress and president. I presume we’ll get some meaningless BS legislation but when it comes to you “Bulbers”, you will be forgotten just like the Gay Marriage people will be.
Hey Tiny, we agree. A first time for everything.
He’s definately a booger eater.
“At this point, I don’t believe you attended college, let alone majored in Poli Sci. How you’ve lived this long without learning to think is a mystery. You’ve become tiresome. I think I’ll stand over here now. (Cheers.)”
Cop out. Could you wave the white flag a little higher please? (F*#k You)
“And listen I don’t hear much about Global Warming these days. I think the scam is up”
It’s not over till Al says it’s over and he only said it’s kinda over… or he kinda embellished or something like that.
I think he got distracted by some kid eatin’ his boogers in the crowd while hugging a book about some natural law guy from 300 years ago.
You can’t blame him for missing a beat after that.
Perhaps Odin is one of Leona Helmsley’s nephews, angry because there’s a french poodle driving around in HIS Bentley.
The poodle has a staff to change the oil, too.
“The poodle has a staff to change the oil, too. ”
HA!!!!! Right on!
I wonder what Jefferson and Franklin and the other founding fathers would have thought about the govt taking their estates from their heirs and dividing them in some arbitrary fashion? Im sure someone would be standing there pointing to some connection to Locke saying its in the book man, sorry.
I see that former Gov. Arne Carlson endorsed Obama today. Interesting that one of Minneosta’s more successful centrist Republican politicians finds Senator Obama better qualified than Senator McCain.
But then, maybe Gov. Carlson does not start with the notion that everyone else is a moron and that it might be a good thing to try to build a consensus which a significant majority of the electorate could support instead of the usual wedge issue political campaigns typical of the Republican party in the last forty years (since Lee Atwater wrote the book on how to do it).
True Blue “The Mimicer”
“For GOP, Reliable Wedge Issues Suddenly Fall Flat”
Thomas B. Edsall
Huffingtonpost just 7 days ago JUST SEVEN DAYS AGO
True Blue “The Mimicer”
God what a fraud you are.
“….usual wedge issue political campaigns typical of the Republican party in the last forty years (since Lee Atwater wrote the book on how to do it).”
And you’re apparently taking lessons from.
Kids are doing the stuff this column is about because the adults of this world are acting childish. It consumes the lives of the parents and screws up the kids … on both sides.
How about Obama offered something that McCain didn’t for Carlson and leave it at that?
Or McCain offered something that Obama didn’t and Lieberman could appreciate it?
California will phase out the use of incandescent bulbs by 2018 .
One, you don’t live in California, and two, your liver won’t make it another ten years.
“Wedge Issue”
Means “darn they keep beating us with those same old issues so lets make them Evil Issues”.
Lets really have a discussion some day on “transparency” Vs Bull sh^t “transparency”.
I mostly agree with Katherine’s post today.
I do think she’s trying to edit history, though when she says:
In decades past, Americans often disagreed strongly with their political leaders, but they did so in civil debate.
Sure, except for the ones that shot their leaders, threw bombs, etc.
I mean, hell, one of our Founding Fathers was killed in a duel.
I don’t buy the idea that we’re somehow devolving. At best if you graph our collective churlishness we may be less civil in our politics than in the 1970’s, but maybe that was a high point in a fluctuating spectrum.
Maybe we should bring back quaaludes and everyone would chill out.
I haven’t had a wedge issue since I stopped wearing briefs.
“I haven’t had a wedge issue since I stopped wearing briefs. ”
Commando .. feel the breeze.
No True your concern shouldn’t be wedge issues but your frickin’ wedgie issueS.
“One, you don’t live in California, and two, your liver won’t make it another ten years.”
Kill me now! Really there is no way on earth that people can be so dumb. I live in the US (United States has also passed legislation increasing the efficiency standard required for light bulbs, which will effectively phase out incandescents.) and I don’t care how many years it is.
Its somebody telling me what to do based on their “religion” their Eco Religion. Based on BS, spread by BS’ers who make $$$$$$$$$ off the BS and imposed on me.
Okay Dan lets pass a law saying you have to stand before God and pray for 10 minutes each day but not until 2018.
I wouldn’t be okay with somebody imposing that on me but apparently you wouldn’t mind because after all its 10 years from now and heck you don’t even live in California.
GIVE ME A BREAK
U.S. Capitol Police spokeswoman Sgt. Kimberly Schneider said that the Capitol Police in Washington are assisting in the investigation. Capitol Police deal regularly with threats to members of Congress or their offices, and could potentially have data from any previous incidents.
Why not the FBI? These were acts of terrorism. Curious that neither the Strib or Katherine labelled them as such.
Greg writes:
“Kids are doing the stuff this column is about because the adults of this world are acting childish. It consumes the lives of the parents and screws up the kids … on both sides.”
A very convenient excuse Greg which says that everyone does it and no one is to blame. I do not buy it.
Politics, by its very nature, is messy and tends to bring out a nasty partisan streak in people. But, a mature democracy can usually sort this stuff out and come to a conclusion. I see a trend developing which will result in another large election sweep for the Democratic Party. John McCain and Norm Coleman have only themselves to blame for this development. They have run almost exclusively negative campaigns with little time devoted to what their agenda would be to fix the mess we find ourselves in today. (How can you talk about cleaning up a mess when you have spent the last six years denying that there ever was a mess.)
Republicans developed the wedge issue campaign back in the Nixon Administration as a method to wrest the South from the Democratic Party over the issue of race. Everything had a racial tinge to it in the post Nixon era Republican Southern Strategy.
Senator McCain had a chance in this election. He blew it with a disastrous pick as his VicePresidential running mate and a campaign that reminded Americans that he appeared to be just a grumpy old man with no vision of where to take America.
I actually think Senator McCain did have a vision of where he wanted America to be; but, he has totally failed in articulating this. Instead it has been attack Obama personally here and sociali$t there and every other scary charge thrown out to see what would stick.
The coming crushing election result is no accident. This will be a result dictated by the fact that the GOP has learned nothing and forgot nothing for the past 20 years.
The good news for the Republicans is that after this election, they will have to change or die. Political parties have died over disastrous failures such as the Bush Administration has dumped on America. And, of course, the Democrats will screw something up in the future. I think we have reached a tipping point and I am not quite sure how this will work out.
“Why not the FBI? These were acts of terrorism. Curious that neither the Strib or Katherine labelled them as such.”
I could while away the hours
Conferrin with the flowers
Consultin with the rain
And my head Id be scratchin
While my thoughts were busy hatchin
If I only had a brain
“I mean, hell, one of our Founding Fathers was killed in a duel.”
I was thinking it might be a good idea to let politicians duel, but that’ll put Palin in the oval office for sure.
You betcha I can drop ya from 600 yards!
“The coming crushing election result is no accident.”
I bet if you ever played baseball you were the idiot on the bench screaming to everyone that would listen that your guy was throwing a no hitter werent you?
From the AFP wire:
“French President Nicolas Sarkozy is suing a company that sells voodoo dolls in his image along with pins to stick in them and a satirical biography.”
So if I were an elected official, what would bother me more, a spray-painted garage or mass-produced voodoo dolls in my image? I think I’d almost rather have the spray paint. At least that way there’s a chance you could catch the punks in the act and have the satisfaction of introducing them to a friend from Louisville….
“And, of course, the Democrats will screw something up in the future”
It’s called a country.
Mark, you can’t confuse Odin with facts and logic. When he can’t think of anything to say, he’ll just leave. Hopefully, he’ll stay gone.
The good news for the Republicans is that after this election, they will have to change or die.
I’m not sure that’s true, given that McCain is considered an outsider most of the party faithful are holding their noses to vote for. The social conservatives could take his defeat as affirmation that his recent come-to-Jesus conversion wasn’t persuasive enough to fool the Moral Majority. The fiscal conservatives could point to his proposed tax cuts as evidence that he isn’t one of them. Both sides could argue that his bragging about battling Republicans sank his candidacy.
Then again, both sides could scapegoat the other and the bloodlettiing while they hash out which side will lead the party could reach biblical proportions. If that happens, got a prediction on which side wins? (I think the godnuts take it.)
And of course, McCain could still win. Probably not honestly, but some of the voting machines are vulnerable to tampering. If that’s the plan, his campaign needs to close the gap so the result is considered plausible.
Kings are bad - John Locke
Inheritence isnt a natural right - John Locke
America should enact a 100% inheritence tax - Comrade Odin.
Inheritence isnt a natural right maybe in nature, but its a right given under societies laws. Since the begining of time societies have handed down property to heirs. Dont like it, start a revolution. Either way Im sure the founding fathers would totally disagree with you regardless of what Locke says or else they would have written the constitution in such a way that the state was the arbitor of all estates upon death. They didnt.
Damn.
“The fiscal conservatives could point to his proposed tax cuts as evidence that he isn’t one of them.”
Show me a conservative that wants to raise taxes and Ill show you…. wait they dont exist.
I have to be sure Im reading Odin right. Are you actually trying to say that McCain’s proposed tax cuts are a liability for him in the eyes of some republicans?
Just a wild shot in the dark here but Im going to go out on a limb and say fiscally conservative republicans want to cut spending. Tax cuts arent a problem.
Odin,
Please read Locke’s 2nd Treatise on Govn, particularly the sections on Political Power and Property. I think you’ll find that he regarded personal property rights as separate from nature due to the effects of man’s labor.
Also, recall that Locke’s intellectual pursuits were supported by a substantial inheritance. He was smart enough to know where is bread was buttered.
Ike wrote:
“Inheritence isnt a natural right maybe in nature, but its a right given under societies laws.”
Since when? In the medieval era, property rights were quite different from what has developed in modern times. Try to explain usefractory property rights otherwise. How would the concept of prescriptive rights work?
“Since the begining of time societies have handed down property to heirs.”
Maybe except the state was the determinor of exactly who the heir was. Your heir could be limited by the heir’s sex, age, religion and the same of the deceased.
“Dont like it, start a revolution. Either way Im sure the founding fathers would totally disagree with you regardless of what Locke says or else they would have written the constitution in such a way that the state was the arbitor of all estates upon death. They didnt.”
Except that that is exactly the way it works even today. All jurisdictions have laws detailing inheretences (probate or intestecy). Since the beginning of time, societies have viewed death as a moment when that society steps in and determines what happens to the property (both real and personal)of the deceased.
A good example of the right wing to make stuff up is the recent use of the term “death taxes” in place of estate taxation. The attempt is being made to somehow make it seem wrong for society to impose a taxable event when someone dies. This has been the case since the beginning under Anglo-Saxon and now American common law and jurisprudence. The view that estate taxes are wrong is a very recent invention picked up by those who want to avoid the very taxes that their forfathers paid as a matter of course. What makes the current crop of ingrates so special?
Please read Locke’s 2nd Treatise on Govn, particularly the sections on Political Power and Property. I think you’ll find that he regarded personal property rights as separate from nature due to the effects of man’s labor.
Also, recall that Locke’s intellectual pursuits were supported by a substantial inheritance. He was smart enough to know where is bread was buttered.
It’s been a number of years, but that’s my recollection too, except that Locke said our bodies are our property and we don’t acquire those through our labor. What I don’t see is why a %100 inheritance tax would be contrary to Locke’s Natural
Law theory. Would you agree that the dead have no natural rights and (in most cases) inheritors have no
natural right to inherit?
I don’t recall Locke explicitly addressing inheritance in his 2nd Treatise. Did he there or elsewhere?
As for his personal circumstances, Jefferson was a slave-owner who tried to get a law passed abolishing slavery. IIRC, it failed by one vote when a legislator he was counting on was too sick to show up. Jefferson may not have been as bright as Locke, but he probably knew who buttered his bread.
“Except that that is exactly the way it works even today.”
Meaning a will can be contested and is subject to interpretation under law. The state doesnt decide who gets what if the proper laws are followed. In other words the state cant take the estate from a family if a proper will was written and give it to someone else in whole or in pieces, something Odin thinks is a good idea or at least proscribed by the founding fathers because they based the constitution on NL theory and Locke.
” Since the beginning of time, societies have viewed death as a moment when that society steps in and determines what happens to the property (both real and personal)of the deceased.”
According to a properly executed will, at least in the United States today.
“A good example of the right wing to make stuff up is the recent use of the term “death taxes” in place of estate taxation. The attempt is being made to somehow make it seem wrong for society to impose a taxable event when someone dies. This has been the case since the beginning under Anglo-Saxon and now American common law and jurisprudence. The view that estate taxes are wrong is a very recent invention picked up by those who want to avoid the very taxes that their forfathers paid as a matter of course. What makes the current crop of ingrates so special? ”
First, Im not a right winger, second pay attention. I said 100% inheritance tax. Not a death tax. When you jump in mid stream you look stupid. Yesterday I said I was for an inheritance tax but disputed the need for a 100% tax as suggested by Odin. And the state cant break your will for no reason other than they feel they have a right to do with your estate as the please because of some precieved law of nature.
Don’t fret, Ike.
D2 will soon be here to call you a soci@list liberal democrat, thereby keeping the universe in balance.
What gives the government the right to take a person’s property, even if that person is dead?
“A very convenient excuse Greg which says that everyone does it and no one is to blame. I do not buy it”
Look in the mirror. Geez, how hard is it to be honest with yourself and admit you’re looking at life through partisan glasses? You think kids don’t ‘get’ that? Heck, they think you’re nutz!
It’s the grownups acting like kids. That’s where it’s coming from and unfortunately you’re a part of that problem.
You’ve leaned so far one way that you can’t steady yourself any longer and think rationally. Walk straight without blinders and you might just end up being less of a hindrance.
Why won’t anyone grow up?
Why won’t anyone grow up?
You caaaan’t make me, you’re not the boss of me!!!
Or something close to that.
“D2 will soon be here to call you a soci@list liberal democrat, thereby keeping the universe in balance. ”
As funny as that is .. isn’t it kinda sad also?
“You caaaan’t make me, you’re not the boss of me!!”
Nanny, Nanny, boo, boo?
What gives the government the right to take a person’s property, even if that person is dead?
You think corpses are people?
Thanks everyone for all the laughs, as usual.
Well, Odin, they used to be taxpayers.
I’m not ready Greg. Maybe in 20 or 30 years? Maybe when the government takes my property because they think I’m almost dead?
Its my one year ruptured spleen anniversary. Woo Hoo. Beverages are on me. Put it on my blog tab.
Damn it good to be alive, MotherFvckers.
Oh well, since I plan on willing all my property to my own corpse, and I just got my Neiman Marcus Christmas catalog (hey, you can only look so good being frugal), I researched what Sarah Palin can do with her reward points accumulated during her shopping trip to the Mineapolis Neimans.
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One great advantage to being Jewish is the fact that we don’t embalm, and we’re buried right away.
This means I can have someone shove all my stuff into the coffin with me, and I’ll be six feet under before the government even knows I’m dead. By the time they find out, I’ll be all rotten and stinking, and nobody’s going to want to dig me up.
I get to keep everything.
tiny-
How about you actually quote the legislation, rather than someone’s interpretation of it.
The fact remains that the legislation raises the efficiency requirements for light bulbs. If someone can make an incandescent bulb that meets the requirements (and there’s no one saying it’s impossible) THEN they are free to sell it.
It’s called educating yourself. I’ve read the legislation. Have you?
Odin, no. But should their death negate their wishes for their property? What if they give all their estate to their son right before they die? Is that allowed? And, again, you didn’t answer my question.
“Put it on my blog tab.”
That things over 360 days on the aging report.
When I go, I’m gonna have this big fancy wooden box with ornate carvings and gold framing. On that box I’m gonna have written “FOR ODIN”. Sure as crap he’ll show up and be all excited (see, those pompous ones always think they end up with the goods). He’ll open up the box and there it’ll be ..
The very last crap I ever took and a note: “You wanted my sh!t well here it is!”
And don’t worry, that gold framing won’t be real.
Would you agree that the dead have no natural rights
Personally, no. Just two quick thoughts.
Practical side. My father works on the money side of a cardiology clinic. He has told me that they frequently have people chose not to undergo a costly procedure, even if it will gain them a little extra time on earth, because they know that they are at the end of the string, and the cost doesn’t justify it. They would prefer to pass the money along to their loved ones. Your idea that we can ethically do whatever we like with someone’s property after he’s dead, regardless of his wishes, is naturally going to lead people to blow every last dime. Not 100% of the people, but I’d guess pretty close. Many people (myself included) are probably going to blow their money on frivolous expenditures, rather than see the money go to the masses, who we probably don’t know and may even dislike. From a practical (perhaps mercenary) side, it’s going to certainly weaken family ties, which I would say would have a negative effect. Probably also the economy, since leaving a heritage behind for the family is one of the primary motivators for many people.
Also, from a philosophical side, I think you’re making arbitrary distinctions. Why actually wait until the person is dead? Let’s say Bill Gates gives $100M to charity to fight malaria, and we’re relatively certain that he will not be able to follow up to see what we actually did with the money. Shouldn’t we feel free right away to do what we want with the money? Use it for cancer research instead of malaria? Or buy a new Ferrari? Whatever we think is ethical for our particular set of beliefs since old Bill’s not going to check anyway. And frankly, even if they do know, why should we care? Because they’ve “earned” it? Earned is a loaded word, and even if you’ve truly earned it, perhaps we have better uses for the resources, even if it means your survival. If we take the resources that you’re using to survive, perhaps we can save 10 kids from dying or give a better education to 1000, one of which might make more of a contribution to humanity than posting to KK’s blog. So frankly, we should just take whatever we have and divide it up however we see fit, regardless of who earned what. Umm, this is starting to sound familiar.
Also, if the respect for the dead, or what’s happened in the past in general, carries no weight in your eyes, I assume that you have a purely utilitarian view of justice. If I kill my neighbor to steal his Ferrari and I’ll never do it again since I genuinely will never do it again since I can only drive one Ferrari (and ignoring the example to society effect), I shouldn’t be punished in your eyes, because dead is dead. I don’t agree with this conception of justice. I think most people inherently (and western culture historically) reject this view.
“It’s called educating yourself. I’ve read the legislation. Have you?”
jcf817 OH BS!
“You think corpses are people?”
That my friends is the statement of a committed Communists. Corpses are not people but the property of the State as well as all their assets at the time of their death. Scary and cold.
Gallop Poll Barack Obama ahead of John McCain 50% to 46%.
Wheres this 10 point NBC CNN lead. I’m not a “grassy Knoll” kind of guy but I’m getting a “funny feeling” that a Subliminal attempt to call this thing is being played on us. I’ve been talking about this thing being over for a month. I may have fallen for the trap myself.
Newsflash to tiny shotglasss: Gallop isn’t NBC/CNN. Different polls will have different numbers. And if both Gallop (4% Obama lead) and NBC/CNN (10% Obama lead) have a margin of error of 3% then they could both be correct at the same time.
That my friends is the statement of a committed Communists. Corpses are not people but the property of the State as well as all their assets at the time of their death.
Actually Communists consider the assets of those alive as property of the state as well as that of those who’ve died.
“Newsflash to tiny shotglasss: Gallop isn’t NBC/CNN. Different polls will have different numbers. And if both Gallop (4% Obama lead) and NBC/CNN (10% Obama lead) have a margin of error of 3% then they could both be correct at the same time.”
What?
Listen I don’t do math but I can’t make that come out even.
Why would the polls be different?
Would NBC poll more Democrats then Republicans or more of one age group then another.
Listen give me some time and let me Crunch those numbers.
10 - 3 = NBC Obama by 7
4 - 3 = Obama by 1 Gallop
10 + 3 = NBC Obama by 13
4 + 3 = Obama by 7 Gallop
Wait I have two sevens. Is that the square then. Okay
You’re a dumb@ss = 7 over pie to the power of Moron + that 1 up there.
I get it….I get it.
Odin, I just read yesterday’s blog and your comments. You said this.
There’s nothing to stop someone from giving away an estate before they die,
That’s why people write wills. If, right before everyone died, they said, “I want everyone to have what is designated in my will,” would that be good enough to satisfy you? Or do they need to go through the whole list?
This may be the dumbest argument ever.
Why would the polls be different?
Becasue each poll is samplinmg a very, very small subset of the total population. Do you even understand what “margin of error” means?
10 - 3 = 7
4 + 3 = 7
So the same result is potentially within each polls marging of error.
I’ll assume you were too busy in high school rolling younger kids for your beer money to pay attention to your classes.
“This may be the dumbest argument ever. ”
He’s not here yet, but you know he likes a challenge.
And now CBS chimes in:
(CBS) With just twelve days left until Election Day, Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama holds a 13-point lead over Republican rival John McCain, a new CBS News/New York Times poll shows.
Obama now leads McCain 52 percent to 39 percent among likely voters nationwide, roughly the same lead he held last week. Just five percent are undecided, and more than 9 in 10 of each candidate’s supporters say their mind is made up.
Odin: Would you agree that the dead have no natural rights?
Gopher38: Personally, no. Just two quick thoughts.
Are you familiar with Locke’s Natural Law philosophy? What reason does Locke give for people having a natural property right in their own bodies? Does it hold true for the dead?
Your post seems to be a series of non-sequitors. I don’t believe the dead have natural rights, therefore I’m a Utilitarian?
Do you have any coherent thoughts about Locke’s Natural Law philosophy as it pertains to corpses?
Tiny .. you ever go to pollster.com?
They do a nice job. Lots of charts to compare with as well.
They seem to be on the up and up.
They show O @ 50.6 and J @ 42.9
They add in the ‘others’ as well.
He’s not here yet, but you know he likes a challenge.
D2??
By the way, GO, congrats on your one year anniversary. It’s right around now, 2 or 3 years ago, when the doctor told me I was lucky mine hadn’t exploded. Sometimes I wish it had just been taken out.
Offspring of the initial bomb.
“So the same result is potentially within each polls marging of error.”
I saw the sevens but the lead is greater despite the margin of error.
The NBC Poll of 10 tells me the election is over.
The Gallop of 4 tells me it might not be.
Didn’t have to take math or science after 8th grade. It just mattered how I “felt” about stuff. Spelling was not that important either.
Listen that’s BS funny math. Those 7 mean nothing.What matters is the perception one poll projects over the other.
Listen I’ve spent hours in my mind trying to figure out how they do these polls.
Like Minnesota how do you poll without hosing the numbers up by having half your calls from the Twincities and Duluth Area? Or age as well. How do you find the perfect mix and I don’t think you can.
Then you have the possibility that the person may lie on the poll. I just saw a thing and it was 10% would lie or something.
And last figure to consider is the past history of polls.
All together using the math deal its BS over BS square.
“This may be the dumbest argument ever. ”
Reminds me of the old Star Trek episode where some space travelers revere an ancient copy of the Constitution and can half-ass mouth the words, but they don’t have a clue about what they mean.
You live in a country in which most if not all of the people revere the Constitution, but don’t seem to have a clue about the Natural Rights philosophy it’s based on, a philosophy that’s been in ascendancy for some time. A number of countries have based their constitutions on it. The UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights is based on it too.
And a another thing that’s bothering me is this Early voting and people using absentee ballets for convenience.
Maybe its my age or something but you Vote on the day the election is and you get a Absentee ballet if your are to be “absent” from getting to the voting booth.
But I do get a little pissed when I see these long lines of people waiting hours to vote so I can understand why people might “get lazy”. So I’d work to correct that.
I don’t think its too much to ask a healthy adult to get up off their @ss on the first Tuesday in Nov and go cast their vote.
OdinofAzgard it’s the same old BS. You twist the constitution to adhere to your interruption then some other person says no and twists it to adhere to his.
I can’t believe you. Especially because I know you have an agenda. Marks kind of out there some were near the middle so I’d be more likely to believe him. I assume you believe the Bush Administration has “trampled” over the constitution.
Now personally I can see no difference in my life and rights then they where in 2000 NONE ZERO.
That’s a big interruption difference there. The “Nutcase Vs Sane Gap” the N.V.S.G ( you communist love that sh^t there don’t Ya?…come on be honest. The NVSG )
“Now personally I can see no difference in my life and rights then they where in 2000 NONE ZERO”
I can. I’m married. I bought a house after renting for so many years making it easier to just leave.
But .. I’m happy.
Hi, all,
DD: Because each poll is sampling a very, very small subset of the total population. Do you even understand what “margin of error” means?
tiny: Like Minnesota how do you poll without hosing the numbers up by having half your calls from the Twincities and Duluth Area? Or age as well. How do you find the perfect mix and I don’t think you can.
Greg: Tiny .. you ever go to pollster.com?
Polling isn’t an exact science, but what I remember from my statistics classes, it’s close. There are ways to allow for the generally more liberal voting patterns in big cities; to make sure there’s equal representation of age and gender groups; and so on.
The phenomenon DD is referring to is called the standard error of the mean (I recall); and means that if you take a number of samples from a population, you’re more likely than not to get different means, but the mean of those means will be very close to the true mean of the population.
Of course two major difficulties are that people lie, or they change their minds, or both. If I remember right, there are ways to deal with those problems, but on the first the math is very messy, and on the second, you need repeat polling.
But in the end it’s the votes that matter.
Ike,
You soci@list liberal democrat!
I wonder if the pollsters poll the same ACORN voters several times to get an accurate reflection of their votes?
“I wonder if the pollsters poll the same ACORN voters several times to get an accurate reflection of their votes? ”
Or find out where Marc Jacoby has been visiting during the polling.
Hey Greg,
I’m really glad I bought that Stihl 310 chain saw. I’m sitting better than ever for firewood and did an environmental good deed by helping to get rid of the oak wilt disease.
Hopefully the liberal “environmentalist” left won’t get so powerful that they ban small engines and wood stoves.
Polling isn’t an exact science,
Tiny,
Don’t even look at polls until next week. Accuracy is secondary for many polls until right before election day.
The fact that most, if not all of these once “independent” pollsters have now teamed up with news organizations just adds a layer of complexity.
Starting next week they’ll be putting out polls that have greater levels of confidence (more accurate). They all want to be within the margin of error at a minimum on election day.
The liberals pollsters seem to want to give an innacurate adavantage to the democrat, just until the election when things become more even. Even then, they are still wrong such as the last couple of Presidential elections where the democrat candidate was favored.
How about the FOX poll that has Obama up? Just stupid liberal bias?
How about the FOX poll that has Obama up? Just stupid liberal bias?
Obviously not, but don’t rule out the lure of a “Comeback Kid” storyline.
Anyone else see Pat Buchanan’s column today?
h-tp://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78921
tiny-
feel free to believe whatever nonsense you want. It shows those of us who actually know real facts about the legislation how willfully ignorant you prefer to remain so that you can continue to complain.
“Can one imagine “Saturday Night Live” doing weekly send-ups of Michelle Obama and her “I’ve never been proud” of my country, this “just downright mean” America, using a black comedienne to mimic and mock her voice and accent?
“Saturday Night Live” would be facing hate-crime charges.
How do we know? When the New Yorker ran a cartoon of Michelle in an Angela-Davis afro with an AK-47 slung over her shoulder, New Yorker editors had to go on national television to swear they were not mocking Michelle, but the conservatives who have so caricatured Michelle and the Messiah.
Is there a media double standard? You betcha.”
Thanks for the link tluck!
Contrasting McCain with his hero, Joe (Biden) declared a few weeks back, “When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and … said, ‘Look, here’s what happened.’”
Nice historical reference. Except when the market crashed in 1929, Hoover was president, and there was no television.
Can one imagine what the press would have done to Sarah Palin had she exhibited such ignorance of history. Or Dan Quayle?
Joe gets a pass because everybody likes Joe.
Go Pat Go.
Can one imagine what the press would have done to Sarah Palin had she exhibited such ignorance of history.
Sarah Palin earlier talked about how she saw a fossil with a human footprint inside of a dinosaur foot print and said that was proof that dinosaurs and humans populated the earth at the same time.
To date we can only “imagine” what the press “would have” done, because they sure haven’t made much of an issue of that instance of historical ignorance.
“Hopefully the liberal “environmentalist” left won’t get so powerful that they ban small engines and wood stoves. ”
I hope they don’t either.
However, maybe they should consider who should be able to operate a chainsaw…. in some instances it makes good sense.
To date we can only “imagine” what the press “would have” done, because they sure haven’t made much of an issue of that instance of historical ignorance.
I suppose it’s not as good a story as who’s babies are who’s, or her clothing.
Gotta stick with the burning issues!
“You live in a country in which most if not all of the people revere the Constitution, but don’t seem to have a clue about the Natural Rights philosophy it’s based on, a philosophy that’s been in ascendancy for some time.”
Based on. Based on Odin, not is. The constitution is based on or influenced by the NL theory from Locke, not is the NL Theory. It, along with others, inspired the constitution, the founding fathers didnt copy it. I can think of several reasons practical and moral to allow people to do what they see fit with their estates upon death instead of allwoing the state to take complete control of the disbursal of the assets.
Gotta stick with the burning issues!
Yeah. Who cares if our next potential president believes the earth is only 6,000 years old? I’m sure she’s much more competent in matters of the economy, energy, national security….
“Who cares if our next potential president believes the earth is only 6,000 years old?”
Is that any better or worse than beliving there’s an invisible man in the sky watching everything you do and judging you on your performance?
Is that any better or worse than beliving there’s an invisible man in the sky watching everything you do and judging you on your performance?
Though to be fair, many people can hold that belief and an understanding of science at the same time. I just figured they give The Big Guy in the Sky more credit for being complicated than those who don’t believe in science.
I just get a kick out of religious people saying your religious beliefs are silly and mine are resonable.
“Sarah Palin earlier talked about how she saw a fossil with a human footprint inside of a dinosaur foot print and said that was proof that dinosaurs and humans populated the earth at the same time.”
I’ve never heard a direct quote from Palin claiming this. All I’ve heard is
is a claim from a liberal blogster in Alaska.
I’ll believe it if you can show me a direct quote, otherwise I’ll file it with “Barack was born in Kenya”
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Katherine Kersten writes a weekly column for the Star Tribune's Sunday Opinion Exchange section. The column covers a broad range of topics reflecting her experiences and interests.
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