Did Forest Lake High Administrators Cave to Political Pressure in Barring Vets?
March 25th, 2008 – 8:20 AMForest Lake High School principal Steve Massey says he cancelled today’s planned appearance by the Vets for Freedom tour at the school because he doesn’t want politics in the classroom. But the cancellation itself was apparently a response to political pressure.
Pete Hegseth, a Forest Lake High grad and the director of Vets for Freedom, told the Star Tribune that he had talked with school officials during the planning process, and made clear that presenters would not make political statements. “It’s Iraq and Afghan veterans talking about what they saw and what they did there, and about what it means to put on the uniform of your country,” he said.
Massey said that the school had gotten several phone calls from parents and others, “some of whom indicated that they may stage a protest if the event took place,” according to the Star Tribune. As a result, Vets for Freedom has been compelled to relocate the 9:30 to 11:00 a.m. event to the American Legion in Forest Lake.
At “Democratic Underground Forums,” there was an announcement of a press conference by various unidentified groups opposing the Vets for Freedom appearance. The announcement exhorted “Veterans for Peace” to oppose the appearance and listed contact info for Massey; school board president Bill Bresin, and the Forest Lake Area Schools district office. The post expressed “outrage” that Vets for Freedom was going to meet with students to “indoctrinate them on the joys of war.”
Shame on Forest Lake High administrators for caving to political pressure under the guise of preventing political pressure. Apparently, they only understand the sort of political pressure exerted by left-wing anti-war groups.
Since when can’t a vet return to his own high school and talk about his service to his country?
I’ll let Hegseth have the last word: “Are we saying that patriotism and duty and honor have no place in our public schools?”
281 Responses to "Did Forest Lake High Administrators Cave to Political Pressure in Barring Vets?"
The post expressed “outrage” that Vets for Freedom was going to meet with students to “indoctrinate them on the joys of war.”
I guess the “Democratic Underground Forums,” only believe in freedom of speech - if they agree with the speech.
Just to be clear. Thats not freedom of speech. THATS CENSORSHIP!!
No, Mr. Hegseth, we’re saying that we don’t want political speech in our classroom. In fairness, they could have simply invited soldiers with a different view of the war to provide their point of view or made the event optional.
Let them go to the VFW for their dog & pony show. Michelle Bachmann’s presence makes it even more of a joke. I’m sure the school admin was afraid she would wet her panties upon the mention of little bush. The majority of Americans want out of this dishonest war. The Forest Lake principal showed some real guts in his action.
Gypsy
Go read the “Democratic Underground Forums,” - they did not just want to have there speech heard. They wanted to stop the speech of the Vets for Freedom. Thats saying they did not want his speech.
Again they believe (and if you are saying the same as them then you too) that only freedom of speech for your speech and not anyone elses.
Stink
Way to drag the discussion down with crap like “wet her panties”. All that shows is you can’t discuss on a logical level and must resort to childish potty humor.
Your kids must be so proud of you.
I find it hilarious that the neo-cons whine incessantly when they are censored, but God forbid the viewpoint of others be heard. Kind of like GW making sure he surrounded by only like-minded people. Unfortunately, there is no dialogue that can occur anymore, as everyone is either far right or far left. I long for the days of forthright debate between the likes of Barry Goldwater and Hubert Humphrey….
jbd
I find it hilarious that the neo-cons whine incessantly when they are censored, but God forbid the viewpoint of others be heard.
First, try not to label people you don’t know (thats prejudism). I am not a neo-con.
Second, I am advocating ALL viewpoints be heard. The Democtatic Unground Forums are trying to stop people’s speech from being heard because they disagree with it.
Kind of like GW making sure he surrounded by only like-minded people.
ALL Presidents surround people who think the same way as them. Do you think that a democratic is any different than a republican or GW any different than Clinton.
Unfortunately, there is no dialogue that can occur anymore, as everyone is either far right or far left. I long for the days of forthright debate between the likes of Barry Goldwater and Hubert Humphrey….
I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But your first statemtent in your post is more like the people you rail against in your last statement of your post.
So which one are you - the one that believes in free speech and forthright debates or the one that just likes to call people names and spout prejudicial rhetoric?
MOI, the story’s a little unclear. The link suggests DUF proposed inviting Veterans for Peace for an opposing viewpoint. And the link uses the term “classroom level activity”….even you would agree that if students are mandated to attend a pro-war presentation, that hardly qualifies as “free speech”.
Of course they caved in to the liberal elite. Why shouldn’t the people defending this country be able to talk about it in a public forum? The gays are allowed to go into public schools and push their agenda.
Liberals are the only real whiners.
GypsyBiker
MOI, the story’s a little unclear. The link suggests DUF proposed inviting Veterans for Peace for an opposing viewpoint. And the link uses the term “classroom level activity”….even you would agree that if students are mandated to attend a pro-war presentation, that hardly qualifies as “free speech”.
First, what I found on the DUF site was just what I posted earlier. They advocated stopping the speech, not having their speech heard.
Second, I don’t know if the presentation was mandatory or not.
Third and most importantly, “pro-war” is an opinion on something that you haven’t even heard of yet. I would hardly believe that the Vets for Freedom are “pro-war”. The speech was promoting service for our country.
But lets be realistic, sometimes war is necessary or do you think that we should have let Hitler continue doing what he was doing?
As an honorably discharged Vietnam era vet, and currently have two sons attending Forest Lake h/s, i couldnt be more pleased by the principals decision to cancel the charade known as vets for freedom. A public school is no place for brainwashing young minds, what’s next arm bands, brown shirts, and goosestepping around the parking lot? Let the students read about current events themselves, and then make an educated conclusion on Iraq.
Marketplace: The fact that I find it hilarious leads to my second point, if I am serious about the need for dialogue that is productive as both sides are too interested in what they have to say, not willing to listen to counter arguments.
Kind of like GW making sure he surrounded by only like-minded people.
moi, I think this is a reference to Bush’s political speeches where only card-carrying Republicans are admitted. People with opposing views are not allowed to attend these speeches. Given your comments today, how can you justify this from anyone, much less the President of the United States?
But lets be realistic, sometimes war is necessary or do you think that we should have let Hitler continue doing what he was doing?
Weren’t we content to do just that until the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor? Didn’t we try to stay out of the war until we were actually attacked?
This is typical liberal fascism.
As Thomas Sowell wrote, the favorite debating tactic of liberals is to say that there is no debate.
Army veterans who want to tell their story? We don’t have to listen to you because you glorify killing. No debate.
Global warming? We don’t have to listen to you because the science is “settled.” No debate.
Abortion? We don’t have to listen to you because it’s now based on a right to privacy that was “discovered” in the Constitution 180+ years after it was written. No debate.
See the pattern?
The way to bring other people around to your way of thinking is to debate them, not silence them.
“Since when can’t a vet return to his own high school and talk about his service to his country?”
One among many misleading comments from Kersten. Disingenuous and cynical. Knocking down a straw man is always easier than actually presenting an argument for your point of view.
This isn’t about a patriotic high school alumnus, it’s about a right wing group defending a misguided war to kids in school. With Michelle Bachmann no less, if that’s not a red flag I don’t know what is.
EBF
moi, I think this is a reference to Bush’s political speeches where only card-carrying Republicans are admitted. People with opposing views are not allowed to attend these speeches. Given your comments today, how can you justify this from anyone, much less the President of the United States?
“Card-carrying Republican” - yes you sure know how to spout rhetoric.
Both sides do this at their rallies and speeches - did you ever see protestors allowed in a Clinton speech when he was president or running for re-election? Do you see any protestors at any Obama or Hillary political rallies.
Now if you are asking me how I feel about that - well you also have a right to free association. I believe that private citizens can decide who they want to associate with.
joe st germain: How pathetic that you can’t think of anything better to say about our vets than comparing them to Nazis. Hopefully your two sons will not read your sad Vietnam-based loathing for the military. Do your best not to brainwash them. At the very least, do your best to expose them to different points of view instead of the cencorship you promoted at Forest Lake High.
“Let the students read about current events themselves, and then make an educated conclusion on Iraq.”
But only if that conclusion is that the war is unjust, right?
And NO ONE is pro-war. It’s like calling a liberal who believes in abortion “anti-life.” Some liberal believes that they have to abort their baby if the situation is bad, just as some people believe that there’s a time when you have to go to war to defend your freedoms.
MOI, I was with ya til the last few paragraphs. You’re right that I don’t know if it was “pro-war” or not, any more than you know it wasn’t. Likewise, you have absolutely no basis to claim it’s “promoting service to our country”. I’ll then make the same argument about Veterans for Peace. I’m simply in favor of presenting all sides.
MOI, sure war is necessary sometimes, just as I think it was in Afghanistan. But if you are trying to equate this war to stopping Hitler, you’ve lost all credibility.
I am appalled and saddened by the actions of the principal and at the words of some of the responses here.
I left Minnesota, where I was born and raised, 9 years ago to follow my husband in the military. News like this makes me adamant never to go back. Vets for Freedom is a non-partisan non-political presentation of service members who are proud and honored to share with the community something about being a service member. The only kind of vet that is tolerated in the cold Mn climate is the one that is ashamed of their service and doing penance for their “sins”. No thank you.
Does it ever occur to any of you that the values that are taught through a program like this (sacrifice, honor, duty) are not military values but human values?
joe st germain
As an honorably discharged Vietnam era vet
I sincerely thank you for your service.
A public school is no place for brainwashing young minds, what’s next arm bands, brown shirts, and goosestepping around the parking lot? Let the students read about current events themselves, and then make an educated conclusion on Iraq.
I cannot agree with you more, however, I would propose more speech from all sides than trying to stop the side you don’t believe in. Because….no matter how you slice it, stopping any speech is still censorship.
If you stop speech - you are no better than the brwon shirts either.
“Card-carrying Republican” - yes you sure know how to spout rhetoric.
I can spout it with the best of ‘em, moi. Besides, if the truth hurts, it’s not my fault.
Both sides do this at their rallies and speeches - did you ever see protestors allowed in a Clinton speech when he was president or running for re-election?
I’m not talking about protesters, just people whose opinions differ from Bush’s. Why aren’t they allowed at Bush speeches? People determined to have different opinions than Bush have been turned away from attending his speeches.
Now if you are asking me how I feel about that - well you also have a right to free association. I believe that private citizens can decide who they want to associate with.
Free association isn’t quite the same thing as being turned away from a speech just because your political ideology differs from that of the speaker.
Perhaps Hell is thawing out again….
Oh my, this is the third day running that I find myself agreeing with the other side of the political spectrum.
I honestly don’t know where to begin. What a soldier does at war is his personal story, not a political statement. Soldiers go into service not as neo-cons, but to serve their country wherever their country decides to send them. Maybe public school students need to hear more about selfless public service. Maybe we should all be thankful for those who are willing to sacrifice their lives for our comfort.
Sharing the experience of war is not political. (Did anyone watch Ken Burns “The War”?) However, protesting against a soldier sharing his war experience is political.
If I were a Forest Lake parent, I would take my children to the VFW tonight.
Wow, you Democrats are comparing our veterans to Nazis. Nice. Class act all the way. Let me guess, you support Franken for Senate.
to figh44, at least i have the decency to put my name on my statement. Please tell me where i compare our solders with nazis? Typical republican spin job. Let me ask you a question? Are you a veteran? if not, dont tell me what i think about out armed service people, oh, and by the way, we just had two Army recruiters at out house last thusrsday for our son Sam. i am a proud veteran, and would be honored to have my son serve.so get off your high horse, and put your money where your mouth is.
For comparison…on MLK day, if someone from the civil rights movement comes in to a school to talk, are you saying we need to find someone from the KKK to provide an alternative viewpoint?
GypsyBiker
any more than you know it wasn’t. Likewise, you have absolutely no basis to claim it’s “promoting service to our country”.
I am going by what I have seen and heard them talk about in the past.
I’ll then make the same argument about Veterans for Peace. I’m simply in favor of presenting all sides.
Thats great if you believe it (its the same for me) but that is not what the DUF wanted. They wanted to STOP the speech of the Vets for Freedom.
MOI, sure war is necessary sometimes, just as I think it was in Afghanistan. But if you are trying to equate this war to stopping Hitler, you’ve lost all credibility.
The Vets in the Vets for Freedom are not just from the Iraq war they are also from the Afgan war.
AND….
Do you think that Saddam and Hitler are completely dissimilar? They both killed MASSIVE amounts of their own people!!! Thats is the similarity I was talking about.
kdonmn - You may want to research what fascism is before you combine it with liberal - The excerpts below are from an article on fascism so I guess you really don’t understand what you are saying….
The respects in which fascism differs from Communism might seem to align it rather more closely with the traditional aristocratic conservatism of the ancien régime, which is likewise particularist, corporatist, mercantilist, nationalist, militarist, patriarchal, and anti-rationalist. But fascism differs from old-style conservatism in embracing an ideal of industrial progress directed by managerial technocrats, as well as in adopting a populist stance of championing the “little guy” against elites—remember the folksiness.
Some of the differences between fascism and the older conservatism may be due to the advances won by their common foes, the liberals. Hence fascism’s odd fusion of privilege and folksiness; one might call it a movement that thinks like Halliburton and talks like George W. Bush.
EBF
I’m not talking about protesters, just people whose opinions differ from Bush’s. Why aren’t they allowed at Bush speeches? People determined to have different opinions than Bush have been turned away from attending his speeches
Clinton, Obama, and Hillary do the EXACT same thing!!
Whats your point?
Actually our side is more civilized. We don’t go to Democrat events and scream like idiots.
MOI, the number of people Saddam killed has nothing to do with why we went there…that’s exactly the issue….this whole uproar is based upon the “justness” of this war and the feelings of “justness” between this war and WWII are totally dissimilar. You’re being intellectually dishonest making that comparison.
All right, I need to backpedal slightly. After spending some time on the vets for freedom website, they are pushing an agenda. They want to “complete the missions in Afghanistan and Iraq.” After reading both the strib article and Kersten’s blog, I had not understood that aspect. Mea Culpa.
That being said, I really, really, really, really detest seeing the sacrafices and lives of our soldiers politicized. It is one thing to disagree with public policy, but a soldier does not craft public policy.
I am still not opposed to Vets for FReedom speaking at a public high school. High school students are not idiots. Hearing even one side of an impassioned debate from someone other than a teacher just adds to their education. And let’s face it (by the way, I’m a democrat…) they have heard plenty of the “this war isn’t worth it; let’s get out now.” argument. And any skilled teacher would follow up a presentation from a group like Vets for Freedom with a safe forum where students could express their own opinions.
By the way, whether or not this war was just when we went in, is it just to leave the country in shambles just because we want to get out?
JBD - Here’s a plain-English definition of fascism for you, from Wikipedia: “Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole.”
And here’s a quick rundown of what Fascists tried to do in the 20th century:
Fascists in Italy and Nazi Germany believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs.
Fascists confiscated inherited wealth and dictated to businesses whom they could hire.
Fascists purged the church from public policy, promoted pagan spirituality, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life.
Fascists supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control.
Fascists loathed the free market, and maintained a strict racial quota system in universities, where campus speech codes were popular.
Now.
Which of the above could be considered “right wing” or “conservative” … and which are eerily similar to today’s core liberal beliefs?
jbd- I can find articles that will support whatever crazy theory I want to find support for. Read “Liberal Fascism”…maybe not your cup of tea but a current best seller. Besides..back in my old community organizing days in MN and Chicago, the most fascistically natured people were also the furthest left in their ideology.
Amazing. Turn every little thing into a “left vs right” issue and then act surprised when someone says “this has become too political.”
Let me guess: Liberal Fascism by Ann Coulter with a forward from Rush Limbaugh….. I am tired of the labels and the BS from both sides, as far as Wikepedia definitions, it shows that intellectually you have a long way to go before you will get your doctorate in history or poly sci….
Dave: Isn’t the purpose of turning every thing into a “left vs right” issue to make sure nothing ever actually gets accomplished?
Two things struck me in this hastily written response.
1. WAS it a mandatory presentation? If so, I disagree with the presentation as a school-wide event. If it were part of a curriculum or subject-related presentation, then I don’t mind them presenting about their experiences, but to make it a required presentation would not sit well with me. Even if it’s not political, it would be like when my principal required our school to attend a presentation by a group that was holding a TEC (Teen Encounter Christ) retreat after school. He planned it for us under the auspice of character education for the kids and while they didn’t say “Jesus” during the presentation — hence, it was not a religious program apparently — it smacked of a teen revival. Even as a Christian, I was uncomfortable with it.
2) KK’s statement: “Apparently, they only understand the sort of political pressure exerted by left-wing anti-war groups.” Please. Both sides exert pressure to move their agenda and are often successful. Right-wing parents have challenged sex-ed successfully and challenged texts used in the classroom, so this statement is completely fallacious.
GypsyBiker–
Some people wanted to get into WWII because alliances with the rest of Europe, some because of the perception of a direct threat to the US and some because of some disturbing rumors about what they were doing to the Jews and others. Different reasons, not necessarily shared equally or at all. All valid and rooted in fact.
There are a number of reasons why we got involved in Iraq. This is not the same issue that is addressed in this forum. That is why it is so difficult for me to believe it when the left continues to claim that they “support the troops”. The Veterans for Freedom ARE the troops and you all can’t even stand to allow them to speak.
bdaniel367: the presentation was to be to 150 students as part of a social studies class.
From the Vets for Freedom Website:
Vets for Freedom is a nonpartisan organization established by combat veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Our mission is to educate the American public about the importance of achieving success in these conflicts by applying our first-hand knowledge to issues of American strategy and tactics in Iraq.
We support policymakers from both sides of the aisle who have stood behind our great generation of American warriors on the battlefield, and who have put long-term national security before short-term partisan political gain.
Vets for Freedom is the largest Iraq and Afghanistan veterans organization in America.
So they claim to be non-partisan, yet they are definately pro-war. With a war that is so politically divided, that’s a loaded statement.
There would have definately been a pro-war message at the event. With the inclusion of Rep Bachmann, the event becomes more partisan. Therefore, the response from the parents shouldn’t be surprising. Free speech is important, but allowing free speech is a double edged sword that the dissenting parents are taking advantage of. Forest Lake’s administration is just keeping peace and should be applauded.
The event has been moved to a more appropriate VFW - where is should have been in the first place. Forest Lake would have been the second school out of what appears to be many stops on their tour (http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/heroestour/tour_stops.aspx).
Hegseth is a little more than disingenuous when he claims that “I don’t know if we’ll have a crowd,” he said. “We changed venues, but we don’t have the ability to publicize it.” I think you’ll find some folks there, Pete.
“How pathetic that you can’t think of anything better to say about our vets than comparing them to Nazis.”
He didnt. He compared the schools forcing kids to hear something as nazis.
Gypsy
MOI, the number of people Saddam killed has nothing to do with why we went there…that’s exactly the issue….this whole uproar is based upon the “justness” of this war and the feelings of “justness” between this war and WWII are totally dissimilar. You’re being intellectually dishonest making that comparison.
I don’t know where you were at the time the congress invaded Iraq but one of the reasons we invaded was because Saddam had killed his own people through massive killings (like hitler did)
If you don’t believe me - Go read Hillary Clinton and other democratic senators speeches regarding the use of force against Iraq.
To use a blanket statement that like the unjustness of the war is not only intellectual dishonesty - its trying to rewrite history!
“Dave: Isn’t the purpose of turning every thing into a “left vs right” issue to make sure nothing ever actually gets accomplished?”
I guess that’s our “legacy”.
Imagine if this was 1944 and a D-Day veteran was banned from a local high school because he believed we “need to finsh the job” in Germany and Italy.
Actually, I would like to hear Al Franken’s thoughts on this. Assuming he has ever heard of Forest Lake.
OK OK before anyone harps on me the statement was suppose to say
“I don’t know where you were at the time the congress authorized the invasion of Iraq but one of the reasons we invaded was because Saddam had killed his own people through massive killings (like hitler did)”
Saddamn was a mass murderer. And don’t forget that he was paying $15,000 to the family of anyone who would murder a Jew.
Hidden behind the very transparent veneer of patriotism, lies the initial stages of recruitment for fresh cannon fodder, for an evil war of aggression.
The schools have the responsibility to protect the children from this sinister outside influence. Keep this vile treachery out of the schools and away from the children.
So let me see if I understand this….the group supports their nations foreign policy and the congressman from the district will be there. That makes this event bad?
So is Amy Klobuchar banned from all public school events?
Katherine,
Why do you encapsulate the name of Veterans for Peace inside quotes but don’t do the same same for Vets for Freedom? They’re both real organiztions, why the quotes for one?
Every time you bracket something you find distasteful in quotes, I get this mental image of you holding two fingers up on either side of your head and sneering like Dr. Evil.
The group is clearly a Republican front group parroting the party line for the illegal war in Iraq. From Wikpedia: The founders of the organization have all seen combat in Afghanistan or Iraq and view themselves as a “mainstream counter to MoveOn.org and Code Pink.”
“Nice” post dubble_a_ron you [[[“genius”]]]
Stu - the event’s neither good nor bad. A bunch of parents were going to hijack it. For that reason (and it appears that reason only) the F.L. administrators put the on the kibosh.
What chafes my hide is that there’s this false pretense put on by the Vets for Freedom (and furthered by KK) that it would be a non-partisan event. Then, of course, they pull a page from the Ann Coulter playbook and label (indirectly) the school as unpatriotic. I suppose it would be more patriotic to allow the event and the protest to occur and let chaos dictate the event.
Partisan events have no place at public schools. If Amy Klobuchar or Michelle Bachmann wish to go to a school to discuss the merit of public service, then by all means, they should. If they want to lend their support or oppose certain issues such as abortion, tax relief, or the war, then they should do so at their own rally. I wouldn’t want my property tax dollars going towards supporting an obviously political event.
If your logic on invading countries with dictators is to hold water, then why are we not in North Korea, Somalia, Pakistan, Venezuela, etc. I don’t enjoy spending Trillions of our tax money on follies. Afghanistan is justifiable as the sanctuary of Al Queda, but Iraq is a unjustifiable boondoogle…
Actually, I think moving the event out of the high school where some parents (who are obviously involved in their childrens’ education)objected and to the local VFW was a good compromise. Apparently some people aren’t too interested in compromise. As Tom Hanks said in “Charlie Wilson’s War”, “you could move that creche off the courthouse grounds and to the local Baptist church and everybody lives.”
ballgame: Sorry, but I can’t support your argument. Politicians go to public schools all the time in order to gain support for their positions. They even hold campaign events at public schools where students are required to attend.
And in the context of a classroom, hearing a viewpoint directly from someone with direct experience is educational. Parents always have the right to insist their children are excluded.
I wouldn’t have a problem with what the school did if they also banned people who wanted to speak about the following: The foolishness of this war. Gay rights. Sanctity of marriage. Minority rights. KKK. Pro anything or anti anything. School is supposed to be a place of learning, and how better to learn other than hearing differing views? Otherwise they’ll get just what Joe St. Germain says he doesn’t want to see, kids being brainwashed by only getting the teacher’s views.
“They even hold campaign events at public schools where students are required to attend.”
When did this happen?
I tend to agree with ballgame’s musing that,
“I suppose it would be more patriotic to allow the event and the protest to occur and let chaos dictate the event.”
Let the veterans speak, let the hippies dance around and place flowers in their gun barrels, let the anxious moms yell, “I don’t want my kid dying for a fool’s errand.”
Kids should learn the democratic process is messy.
They should learn that there are thoughtful people on all sides of an issue and also slobbering ranters on all sides of an issue.
The kids are learning at the expense of the (federal) State and the State is waging war so why would it not view its schools as a recruiting ground?
But schools are a place where kids should learn to think critically about whatever message they are receiving at the moment, if they are to grow up to be participants in our democracy. It is especially in the kids’ self-interest to think critically if the message is they should sign up to go get shot at.
“If they want to lend their support or oppose certain issues such as abortion, tax relief, or the war, then they should do so at their own rally.”
If they want to lend their support or oppose certain issues such as…tax relief….then they should do so at their own rally.
Do you oppose tax relief? Do you like giving your money away?
One important point you all miss. Given the same circumstance Gore would have done the same thing. Who are you trying to kid.
I think todays Nutjobs would still be the Nutjobs, just wouldn’t be as many of them.
And Moveon would be touting the Surge as a great success.
If it was Gore
Hollywood celebrities would be glorifying the way we are trying to bring democracy to the Iraqis. And they’d be goin’ there building schools “for the children”
BM’s site would have blogs about why we should stay.
If it was Gore
Teachers from the Twin Cities would be lining up to go teach the Children of Iraq.
Who are you people trying to fool. This is all about Bush. This is all about the party in power. And its all a bunch of nonsense.
But the most important thing of all is.
“Win that next election”
Ballgame has it right - this is the same outfit KK was cheerleading for earlier.
A debate in school, a non-political vets group or several of them, but not this.
Bachmann can use some other place for photo-ops if she wishes.
Plus the old prematurely graying old washed up hippy types love this sh^t. They got their “Nixon” and the whole deal.
“Are we saying that patriotism and duty and honor have no place in our public schools?”
Of course they are. The left has been saying this for a long time now. They would prefer that Gangsta Rappers and Criminal Element Athletes come and talk to our children. They would prefer that Sara Jane Olson come and speak of the injustice thats been done to her. They would prefer that Obama’s reverand Wright speak to the children.
Wow, both sides are a bunch of lying hypocrites. Imagine if a Christian group protested a Gay speaker, most of you liberals would be up in arms that the Right are a bunch of evil hatemongers and the person should be allowed to speak. Now the shoe is on the other foot and you liberals could care less about this persons right to speak. Basically you only want who you want to speak, there is no exchange of ideas from either side, Liberal of Conservative, each pushes their own agenda.
leland8
The schools have the responsibility to protect the children from this sinister outside influence. Keep this vile treachery out of the schools and away from the children.
Here Here!!! Lets now move on and stop the prolifiration of schools forcing Al Gore’s piece of sh&t movie “An Inconvienent Truth” that is more like “An Unbelievable Lie”!!
Oh wait - you say - thats not partisan thats not treachery - thats science. right! Like the science of Global Cooling when I went to school.
Give me a break. The left is just pissed that someone is trying to disemminate a different message than theirs.
What a bunch of hogwash - “Stop Indoctrinating the kids” should actually be “Stop Indoctrinating the Kids with ideas what we don’t agree with!!!
Look at the left - they are ok with indoctrinating kids about condoms, abortion, and a whole mess of other things. You know why - they agree that they should be indoctrinated with the message!
Oh and last - to the left its only partisan when they say its partisan - like today’s topic. But do they say - keep partisan out of schools when they want to pass out condoms!! No no no.
Me thinks that is hypocrisy again from the left.
Remember FREE SPEECH is for EVERYONE (not just own your point of view)
I wonder if any liberals are veterans….I doubt it.
G.Eliot - I disagree.
As a former high school teacher, I can say that no one is forced to attend any assemblies, even though they usually do. My former school allowed vets, judges, and representatives speak and they spoke about politics without getting political.
I think back to when Pres Bush 43 spoke at Eden Prairie H.S. in 2002. His topic was… (big pause for effect) his Quality Teaching Initiative. Hardly the stuff worth protesting. Of course he spoke about “terrorists hating freedom” and that type of stuff, but that’s to be expected. I believe I remember students being allowed to be excused from the event, but the gym was filled to capacity with other members of the community.
As much as I agree with exposing students to the messiness of democracy, we need to realize schools and teachers are inundated with opportunities to distract them from finishing up the school year and getting all of their standards done. This time of year is especially nerve racking.
I believe that having the vets in to discuss the war with the social studies students (as was the original plan) would have been an outstanding learning opportunity. I wouldn’t be afraid of exposing them to partisanship - high school students can usually sniff that stuff out pretty easily. Unfortunately, as usual, a bunch of angry adults (the parents, not administrators) mucked it up.
Meanwhile us students, according to the lastest findings are seriously laking in math and science compared to the rest of the world. but, hey rightwingers, lets invite some veterans to talk about war in out schools, and eat up some more valuable class room time that could be used for an actual education, instead of promoting an unjust war..WTF?
“hey rightwingers, lets invite some veterans to talk about war in out schools, and eat up some more valuable class room time that could be used for an actual education, instead of promoting an unjust war..WTF?”
Joe st germain,
Your purple hair dye is fading and your peircing are getting infected. Pull your head out of your Emo A$$ and enjoy the real world.
dazzleman - WTF? O.k. if you want to change the subject, then here…
I have no problem with paying for my share of services whether its roads, schools, snowplows and pothole repair. I don’t even mind paying for other’s share, knowing that not everyone is as fortunate as I am.
What I do have a problem with is with obscenely inefficient government along with politicians handing out borrowed money (from the Chinese no less) and calling it “tax relief”. Then they have the audacity to tell me to spend it when I’ve been dipping into savings for the last six months.
So the students get an hour to talk with a war hero (and recent graduate of Forest Lake high school). Joe St Germain says that if they don’t do this, then their math skills will go up.
Hey pal, put down the bong and listen. The kids will get more out of talking to these guys then sitting in a classroom for that hour and looking out the window.
And yes, teachers do use the schools to promote their political agenda. When I was a youngster, the teachers in Eau Claire tried to block Dan Qualye from speaking at North high. Later I moved to Duluth and the Duluth teachers would hold bring in speakers (like Rob Lowe) and hold campaign rallies during the school day for Democrats.
ballgame,
As far as the tax rebate goes I agree its a waste. It would be better spent being poured into the infrastructure creating jobs or as a permanent small bussiness tax break to create jobs.
Buying a big sceen TV made in china is a waste.
Pretty simple.
Okay if;
Kid comes home and says; “Dad you’re killing the earth by using that leaf blower. I’m going to save the planet someday from people like you.”
Not okay if kid comes home and says;
“ I was really inspired by the Vets at school today. I think I’m going to join the Army”
Plus to have Vets saying the effort is worth it only to come home and watch MSNBC Family Keith Obermann hour only to hear different.
Young little sun-of-guns might question why the difference.
Having spoken with a grand total of 4 Iraq/Afghan war vets (the recent one), all I can say there is a wide range of opinion on the subject. A discussion between them - not this - would be fitting for a public school.
Again, the run up to this event is classic - form the group, promote the group through people like KK, set up a bunch of photo-op events, and then have that become the baseline for political discussion.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/001008.php
Too bad they don’t have an hour to talk with Tillman.
I’ve noticed people saying that both sides of the story need to be heard. I agree. But did anyone pause to wonder if the Vet’s for Freedom is the other side of the story?
My favorite statement of today: joe st gremain, “A public school is no place for brainwashing young minds…” Really? You may want to rethink that statement.
And why are there only two sides to this story…
As a former student of FL, and a former service member, I think it was good that this was moved out of the school. If you read the Vets for Freedom website, the event is scheduled as a rally, not former student/vet talking about their experience. I commend Pete for wanting to share this with his former school, but then don’t have a politician on hand (Dem or Rep) when it is done. His org can still have a politicized rally at the VFW and let the public attend.
“Meanwhile us students, according to the lastest findings are seriously laking in math and science compared to the rest of the world. but, hey rightwingers, lets invite some veterans to talk about war in out schools, and eat up some more valuable class room time that could be used for an actual education, instead of promoting an unjust war..WTF?”
Just who has been incharge of the public school system since the late 60’s? Ohhh, thats right, the people you just defended. The very same people who have teaching for the last 40 years. Yeah, those people who under their watch, saw test score plummet into 3rd word status. Way to defend the status quo.
joe st germain
Meanwhile us students, according to the lastest findings are seriously laking in math and science compared to the rest of the world. but, hey rightwingers, lets invite some veterans to talk about war in out schools, and eat up some more valuable class room time that could be used for an actual education, instead of promoting an unjust war..WTF?
Ok - I will set aside your obvious political leaning with comments like ‘unjust war’ and ‘rightwingers’ and try to address your underlying concern.
Students are not spending enough time learning about math and science.
If you are really concerned about that then would you do away with…
Any group coming to talk to students about something other than math or science?
Would you do away with sex education classes?
How about music? Band? sports?
What I am trying to do is show that you are partisan in this issue (which I believe you are entitled to that opinion) But are trying to hide it behind some type of ‘think of the students’ argument.
Free Speech is for everyone - not just for your point of view.
Do I? I beg to differ, i might be “old school”, but I think high schools should be used for educating our future generations in math and sciences. Not like you rightwing arm chair war mongers, who i’d bet never served their country in the military, just like Bush, who’s records of his service mysteriously dissapeared, or maybe Channey, who had 5 deferments, if on the other hand your a fellow veteran, i appologze. but please leave this crap out of our high schools.
Jeremy A
Just who has been incharge of the public school system since the late 60’s? Ohhh, thats right, the people you just defended. The very same people who have teaching for the last 40 years. Yeah, those people who under their watch, saw test score plummet into 3rd word status. Way to defend the status quo.
I have to admit that you have the best rebuttal of the day. Well said.
I am a former student of FL and a former servicemember and I agree that this should not have been in our school. If you read the Vets for Freedom site, the FL stop was a rally, not a former student/vet stopping in to do a talk about his experiences. I applaud Pete for doing this, but once you bring in a politician (Dem or Rep), you politicize the event. Let Pete talk at the school to those who want to hear about his time at war, and let the Vets for Freedom host their rally at a public location and invite all the politicians they want.
Joe - I am a vet of Operation Desert Sheild/Storm. I even had a cool license plate from the state of Minnesota. Nice try though.
“just like Bush, who’s records of his service mysteriously dissapeared, or maybe Channey, who had 5 deferments”
Or Kerry who came back and spoke on campuses about burning babies or Abbie Hofman who served his country by inciting riots and dirupting the political proccess. But lets not forget Hanoi Jane. How many campus rallies did she lead. WTF
Stu:
Maybe Dan Quayle was not welcome because he could not spell or find Hawaii or Florida on a map, not because he was a Republican….
If the tour’s appearance at the high school was supposed to be closed to the public, then why was Congresswoman Bachmann going to be in attendance? Isn’t she part of the public? Would this group have invited an anti-war member of Congress to appear?
And KK writes, “Apparently, they only understand the sort of political pressure exerted by left-wing anti-war groups.
Why no reference, KK, to the Republican members of Congress that oppose the war? And, KK, if a group which was founded to oppose the war (this touring group was founded to support the war) was scheduled to make a “non-political” presentation at the school and that appearance was canceled, would you be expressing equal outrage?
Jeremy A - So you’re going to lump all teachers together and blame / credit them for the performance of all students? Who, in your words, “under their watch, saw test score plummet into 3rd word status”?
So for you, its not the student’s responsibility? nor the parent’s? nor the administrator’s? nor the state and local government’s? nor pop culture’s?
Exhibit A as to why I’m no longer a teacher.
g.s.a.h.a your a funny one, yeah just like Kerry, who actually put his life on the line, was wounded and then gets ripped for it by the two scoundrals, who when it was their turn to serve, chickened out. talks cheap pal.
“I wonder if any liberals are veterans….I doubt it.”
Jimmy Carter was an officer on a nuclear submarine. Does that count?
Joe
Given that service to the country is very important to you and trying to get out of service is abhorent to you.
Did you vote for Bill Clinton or Bush in 1992?
Did you vote for Bill Clinton or Bob dole in 1996?
Are you supporting McCain?
What records of Bush “mysteriously dissapeared”? Please tell us.
While we are all waiting for your response, I recommend reading what those who service with president Bush have to say:
wingmenforbush
no i voted for Ross Peroit, and I have not decided who I’m voting for this comming election.
I wouldn’t want Cheney in the military. If he can’t tell the difference between a bird and his best friend, it’s safer for him not to have a weapon.
I think if the Vets were just telling what happens and not actually recruiting… Then I’m all for it. Why shield the kids from this stuff? They’re not two-year-olds.
“Free Speech is for everyone - not just for your point of view.”
So the parents who objected to having their kids hear this presentation. What are their rights?
Again, I will say, moving the event offsite was a good compromise. Those who wanted to attend, could. Those who did not, didn’t have to. The group got to give their presentation, they were not silenced. I think this is also a good compromise for events that you listed earlier that you object to: Sex education classes, speeches about abortion and condoms, climate change presentations, evolution/creationist theories, etc. Take them all offsite to more appropriate venues. I’m willing to compromise, are you?
“talks cheap pal.”
So is your sister
Joe
1992 - So did I
How about 1996?
See if you rally in support of the effort it’s a warmonger deal.
If you rally against the war it’s your conscience and civic duty and all that.
“And we can rent a set of bongos down there!”
And yes it’s all about making a fortune by bring the bongos back.
“no i voted for Ross Peroit, and I have not decided who I’m voting for this comming election.”
You haven’t voted since Perot? Talk surely is cheap.
bush never fullfilled his military service…i’m not going to do your homework for you, but google gw bush’s service record and see what you get, any wonder, considering pops was in charge of the c.i.a at the time.
joe st germain:
How are you going to learn more math and science in a social studies class?
“So the parents who objected to having their kids hear this presentation. What are their rights?”
What about the parents who did not want their kids to watch Carbon Al’s slide show. Thats right. They were told of it by their children after the fact.
as far as i’m concerned, there hasnt been anyone worth voting for. why vote for the lesser of two evils?
as far as i’m concerned, there hasnt been anyone worth voting for. why vote for the lesser of two evils?
Dennis Hopper says it’s okay to be rich man…its fine, just “Redefine”.
as far as i’m concerned, there hasnt been anyone worth voting for. why vote for the lesser of two evils?
“why vote for the lesser of two evils?”
You have nothing to complain about. Just sit there and keep your mouth shut like you do during elections.
Dave G.
So the parents who objected to having their kids hear this presentation. What are their rights?
Again, I will say, moving the event offsite was a good compromise. Those who wanted to attend, could. Those who did not, didn’t have to. The group got to give their presentation, they were not silenced. I think this is also a good compromise for events that you listed earlier that you object to: Sex education classes, speeches about abortion and condoms, climate change presentations, evolution/creationist theories, etc. Take them all offsite to more appropriate venues. I’m willing to compromise, are you?
Absolutely I think that is a great compromise. Do you think the left would be willing to go for that compromise too? I don’t think so - they want to keep all of their topics in the school.
Which leads me to what I am upset about. The DUF and alot of the people on this blog today want to quiet the speech of Vets for Freedom completely silent but have their own speech heard.
Lets have a show of hands on the left - who would agree with Dave G.’s compromise. Sex Ed and condom distribution is no longer going to be on campus but at a third party site.
“Exhibit A as to why I’m no longer a teacher.”
Do you really think that 40 years ago kids didn’t come from broken homes where no emphasis was paid to education? Don’t make me laugh.
Teachers are on the front line. They do not make nor set the cirriculum.
The question that was posed was: “Did the Principal cave in to political pressure?” The obvious answer is, “Yes”. Some of you are happy that the Principal caved, others - myself included - are not. What occurred to me was what a wonderful opportunity for learning (for the students) has been missed. The worst that could have happened (assuming that there were no violent protesters) was that the students would have heard from the Vets - whether they are actually biased or not. And they might have also witnessed some kind of silent, or verbal, protest. Then the kids, poor darlings, would have had to process what they had seen and heard and come to their own conclusions. Heaven forbid! Or isn’t that what education is supposed to be all about?
Another thing to consider is that at age 18 these “kids” will be eligible to join the armed forces of the USA and perhaps be sent off to a current or future armed conflict. To those of you who would shield them from learning anything about the military, from hearing anything about serving their county or about learning some of the realities or war: when - and how - would you suggest that they learn about such things?
Why are so many of you so afraid of having your positions and beliefs challenged?
Rabbit: “I think if the Vets were just telling what happens and not actually recruiting… Then I’m all for it. Why shield the kids from this stuff? They’re not two-year-olds” I completely agree that if we want to raise responsible adults, we need to give hs students the chance to tackle tough issues.
Although, I feel compelled to point out that the military does, indeed, recruit in public high schools. Of course, so does McDonald’s.
“Sex Ed and condom distribution is no longer going to be on campus but at a third party site.”
I bet the kids get lots of sex ed and condomes at their party sites.
“What about the parents who did not want their kids to watch Carbon Al’s slide show. Thats right. They were told of it by their children after the fact.”
I covered that. Did you not read my post all the way through? Again, take all of those controversal issues offsite to more appropriate venues where only those who wish to participate can participate.
“Absolutely I think that is a great compromise. Do you think the left would be willing to go for that compromise too? I don’t think so - they want to keep all of their topics in the school.”
I think they would. In fact, I’m from the left. I’m about as far left as you can go.
Jeremy - I’m not sure what you’re implying, but what I’m saying is this: Teachers get kids from all types of backgrounds and intellects and then everyone from the parents to the governor says “Teach them and don’t leave them behind”. No one else takes responsibility for the education of our students.
You can’t just lump every individual teacher together and then blame the failings of the education system on them. It would be like blaming the failing of the home industry on the carpenters.
at least i have a pair of nads sonny boy, what service were you in?
Dave G.
I think they would. In fact, I’m from the left. I’m about as far left as you can go.
I think you are being a little naive but I am willing to find out.
Hey all you bloggers
Anyone on the left would go for Dave G.’s compromise?
“I covered that”
Dave G yes you did and I’d agree to that. And I’m from the middle of the road.
Joe
Are you saying that you did not vote in 1996?
Please say that’s not true, Joe, please say it isn’t true.
“I think you are being a little naive but I am willing to find out.”
Hey, thanks for the insult. That always helps things along nicely.
Alright
We got
MOI - mostly right - going for the compromise
GSAHA - middle - going for the compromise
Dave G. - far left - going for the compromise
Anyone else?
Thank God you dont teach anymore. I wouldn’t want a, ‘poor me it’s so tough to be a teacher’ at the head of my kids classroom.
Wait a second, where did I lump every teacher together? Let’s see, what did I say again? Hmmm, ohh yeah: “Teachers are on the front line. They do not make nor set the cirriculum.” I think that statement exonerate’s the teachers. I guess you weren’t an english teacher.
Dave G.
sorry if you took that as an insult - didn’t mean for it to be.
I was under when alot of these previously were being debated - When the sex education topic was very hot - the left didn’t go for putting it in a third party site - they specifically wanted in the school.
When condom distribution was happening - the left fought to have it done in the school.
joe st germain,
You have nads because you served in the military? Is that what makes you a man. Geezus Khrist.
Should I call you Hero sonny boy?
You can be whoever you want to be on a blog.
I did not serve in the military. And I don’t need a Braggard like you to tell me what its like to serve either.
“they specifically wanted in the school.”
Kind of like the right and this issue. As I see it, both side have a long way to go.
All these comments about right and wrong and nobody has mentioned the fact that a group of suburban/exurban kids missed out on a learning opportunity. An opportunity that may have given them the tools to agree or disagree with anyone of you and expand their own worldview.
Not to mention the fact that another teacher or administrator will fear the wrath of every adult who fancies themselves “more right” before trying to enrich the education of their students with worldly content.
Maybe childish adults trying to “protect” their kids from contrary ideas - or use them as political capital - could be affecting those test scores too.
“at least i have a pair of nads sonny boy, what service were you in?”
Did you inlist or were you drafted?
I myself was in the Forest Service one summer!
“Please say that’s not true, Joe, please say it isn’t true.”
I hate when people get baseball cliches wrong.
Its “say it aint so joe, say it aint so.”
“at least i have a pair of nads sonny boy, what service were you in?”
Isn’t it really the “nad” that leads to all wars.
Nads and religion.
Yes Dave
Kind of like the right and this issue. As I see it, both side have a long way to go.
However, I don’t see school officials moving the sex ed, condom distribution, evolution, or GW off of school campuses, but I do see them moving the war discussion of campus.
Hmmmm - what side do you think the school officials are on - doesn’t seem to be non-partisan.
And a guy named Germain living on Joe Street does not have nads. They’re called dingle berries.
technically mark that is a movie quote.
And I hate it when people get movie quotes wrong.
“at least i have a pair of nads sonny boy, what service were you in?”
You think being in the service is the only way to have “NADS”?
“I myself was in the Forest Service one summer!”
Did you have a uniform?
We need a carbonless/nadless/Religionless
World. With lots and lots of good Ganja!
Oh and Pete Seeger playing the banjo.
“However, I don’t see school officials moving the sex ed, condom distribution, evolution, or GW off of school campuses, but I do see them moving the war discussion of campus.”
Well, gotta start somewhere. I’ll help you guys with the rest of those things if you want.
BRainwasher, at 10:10, I wrote “I am still not opposed to Vets for FReedom speaking at a public high school. High school students are not idiots. Hearing even one side of an impassioned debate from someone other than a teacher just adds to their education.”
And about the “let’s move controversy off campus” NO NO NO NO!!!!! Wouldn’t you rather have students disucssing real controversail issues like global warming and war than the whole “OMG, the school totally has no right to suspend me from football for posting pictures of me drinking on facebook.” These kids will be taking care of us in our old age; let’s get them thinking!
Dave G.
Well, gotta start somewhere. I’ll help you guys with the rest of those things if you want.
Jeremy A - I’ve got time for one more post and I’ll hang on a bit to see your response.
I’m not sure why you’re all cranked out. All I (tried) to say is that teachers usually reap the blame and rarely are able to take the credit. I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing, but when you blame the failings of an entire institution on one branch, albeit a significant branch, you’re still missing a huge chunk of the problem.
And this is not to say that schools are failing. Most schools do a tremendous job at preparing our kids.
If I came across as a “poor me”, forgive me. Its frustrating when many of the parents of your kids blame you for their kid’s lack of performance and effort. Then the Governor comes up with a plan to pay teachers for their student’s performances. Most teachers work hard so their students perform well without the added financial incentive.
I thought you lumped all teachers together when you said “Just who has been incharge of the public school system since the late 60’s? Ohhh, thats right, the people you just defended. The very same people who have teaching for the last 40 years.” That sounds like you’re damning the entire lot of us. There’s a heckuva lot of good teachers out there who are treated like lazy bums because of quotes like that.
I thought NADS removed unwanted hair?
Dave G.
Well, gotta start somewhere. I’ll help you guys with the rest of those things if you want.
Well then I thin kyou need to give the FL Principle a call. Lets get evolution and GW and sex ed off of campus. I think it is an appropriate place to start since he has alreay stopped the other side.
Let me know how that works out?
Me and Chuck Barris where on a couple of secret C.I.A. missions together but I can’t talk about those.
Ok
G.elloit is not for the compromise.
By the way - which sid eare you - left or right?
I can see both Jeremy’s and ballgame’s side of the education issue. I worked in daycare for 12 years and wanted to be a teacher. But as I saw the behavior of children become increasing hideous and uncontrollable, I quickly changed my mind. And when you would meet the parents of these kids, you understood why the kids acted so bad. This “we can’t discipline Johnny because it might inhibit him creatively” BS has got to go. In the meantime, Johnny is plotting the murder of his parents so he can collect the insurance and open a coffee shop (remember that story?) I don’t blame the teachers, but I blame the parents and the liberal government for taking away the teachers rights to control what goes on in their classrooms. The teachers need to fight back. The me, me, me attitude of youth these days will be the downfall of our great nation. And for the record, I am only in my mid-30’s (not all that old) and childless (forever) but I am a girl scout leader so I can try to have a positive influence on a least a few of the children in this world.
I wonder if Bill Murray had “NADS” in the movie Stripes?
What a spineless human being. A couple of phone call, someone might protest. I thought to enrich a young persons mind that they should see all aspects before making a decision. Oh wait, that’s only if the left wants to make a statement. Whether you like it or not, the military is a vital part of our history, is a outstanding career choice for some people, and they do the work so you can sit in your little cocoon and complain. When the terrorists knock down your down; you will wonder where the military is.
Yes, 4,000 brave men and women have died in Iraq.
AT THE SAME TIME—how many murders in our large cities? How many deaths on our highways?
MOI: I think of myself as a moderate democrat. People on the far left think I am on the right and people on the far right think I am far, far, far left.
Figures, typical rightwing chicken, If your so for the war, why not enlist? oh ya, that might actually take some fortitude, just sit back and tell us why we’re not as patriotic as yourself.
“Let me know how that works out?”
OK
How many Bush Administration officials does it take to screw in a light bulb?..None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; it’s conditions are improving every dat. any reports of it’s lack of incandesence are a delusional spin from the liberal media. The light bulb has served honorably, ans anything you say undermines the lighting effect. Why do you hate freedom?
How many Bush Administration officials does it take to screw in a light bulb?..None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; it’s conditions are improving every day. any reports of it’s lack of incandesence are a delusional spin from the liberal media. The light bulb has served honorably, ans anything you say undermines the lighting effect. Why do you hate freedom?
How many Bush Administration officials does it take to screw in a light bulb?..None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; it’s conditions are improving every day. any reports of it’s lack of incandesence are a delusional spin from the liberal media. The light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effect. Why do you hate freedom?
“I don’t blame the teachers, but I blame the parents and the liberal government for taking away the teachers rights to control what goes on in their classrooms.”
I blame the teachers union for keeping the worst of the worst from getting fired and replaced with the best of the best.
joe st germain - Please don’t categorize all conservatives like that. I have several friends who are currently in the military, all of whom have done at least one tour in Iraq, one who is planning to go again VOLUNTARILY, and all of whom are conservatives. I am on the right, but I don’t like war. However, I am very proud of all my friends for defending our rights and freedoms, and trying to gain those same rights and freedoms for others.
“Did you have a uniform?”
Unfortunately no, didn’t make it out of boot camp. But I did get a hard hat! That counts for something. Still got it too, saved my life one day when a 10′ stump fell right on my head. I know why they call them “widow makers”. My bad, that’s a sexist remark. Should be bereavement makers?
“and they do the work so you can sit in your little cocoon and complain.”
So let them complain. Its their right and they dont have to kiss your @ss if they dont want to. Stop asking for recognition. Is that why you joined or what?
“Figures, typical rightwing chicken, If your so for the war, why not enlist? oh ya, that might actually take some fortitude, just sit back and tell us why we’re not as patriotic as yourself.”
Germain on Joe Street,
1st, I’m not leftwing or rightwing.
2nd I’m nearly 50 years old. I’d just get in the way and slow the troops down. If you were ever in combat? you’d know this.
3rd, Unpatriotic? Maybe but I don’t know personally.
Your are for sure a non-voting, loser, a whiner, a phoney poser,
cry baby. You have your tighty whitey’s bunched so far up your a$$ that your gerbile in uncomfortable.
MOI:
Card carrying liberal here. Please put down the grenades.
I can’t support the compromise that Dave G. suggests.
Are we really suggesting that biology be taught without mentioning Darwin?
No mention of how animals procreate?
No education on the effects of drugs and alcohol?
No debates allowed on topical subjects, i. e. abortion?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
joe st tool,
Easy there fellow, hitting the “submit comment” button repeatedly doesn’t make your joke any funnier or help with your anger issues.
How many Bush Administration officials does it take to screw in a light bulb?..All of them. There is nothing wrong with the light bulbs but the Al Goreites have everyone convinced they must throw away the perfectly good ones and replace with mercury carrying cfl’s that can kill you.
That’s my version and I’m sticking with it.
Harriet - liberal - against compromise
Harriet should we allow the vets for freedom to talk at our schools?
“Huge Antarctic ice chunk collapses”
“WASHINGTON (AP) — A chunk of Antarctic ice about seven times the size of Manhattan suddenly collapsed……..”
“It’s an event we don’t get to see very often,” said Ted Scambos, lead scientist at the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colo. …….”
“Vaughan had predicted the Wilkins shelf would collapse about 15 years from now.”
OK there are several questions to be answered here.
1.) Is it a weather event rather than a GW event since we don’t see it very often. Like snow in Bagdad was a weather event.
2.) it was predicted to collapse 15 years from now. They got it wrong. What else are they getting wrong.
3.) Why didn’t Al Gore’s carbon trading to power his house offset or slow the melting of the Ice Shelf.
“g.s.a.h.a your a funny one, yeah just like Kerry, who actually put his life on the line, was wounded and then gets ripped for it by the two scoundrals, who when it was their turn to serve, chickened out. talks cheap pal.”
I heard Kerry bumped his head while getting out of his car at an anti-war rally. Guess he’s putting in for another Purple Heart for that too since it’s militar related!
Thanks Harriet.
MOI, you’re right. I stand corrected. I guess compromise is out of the question. Anyway, it will look good on our collective tombstones:
“We stuck to our principles. We didn’t accomplish anything, but gosh darn it, we stuck to our principles.”
Hi, all,
I only have a few comments on this business.
One: Mr. Massey said the program for the kids would not have been open to the public; my question would have been why not?
Two: I think Mr. St. Germain, being the parent of two Forest Lake students, has more standing in this discussion than anyone. I believe that parents are and should be the primary educators of their children.
Three: I take my hat off to Mr. St. Germain for serving our country. I never had to because I flunked the physical in 1965. Many of my friends served; six of them are dead.
Four: Having been born during WWII, and having grown up in its aftermath, and owning and having read well over 200 books about it, and having lived through the Vietnam era . . . I would think that the absolutely last person to glorify war would be a soldier. As Bill Mauldin said in Up Front, “The surest way to become a pacifist is to join the infantry.”
Five: all that said, patriotism is not a vice, and helping to defend the community is not a bad thing.
Dave G.
I accomplished something today. I showed you, even though you didn’t want it to be true, that your side is a bunch of hypocrits.
They say they want free speech but all they want is their speech to be allowed - they are not willing to allow speech they don’t agree with.
As I said before - Free speech means everyone gets free speech.
MOI, seems to me there are a couple of questions here. 1) is Vets for Freedom in fact advancing a political agenda, and
2) should schools allow partisan programs. I’d say the answers are yes and yes, as long as it’s clear that the school isn’t necessarily endorsing the agenda. Ideally, they’d have a pro-war presentation and an anti-war presentation and let the students decide for themselves.
I’m mostly liberal, and I think the vets should have been able to speak.
I’ve never been religious, but I went to Catholic school most of my life and we had speakers and programs that presented all sides of hot-button issues, even viewpoints that go against Catholicism.
It’s a way to get students thinking and making decisions for themselves. I think this is exactly what high school is about… broadening students’ world view and experiences.
Harriet is obviously not included in the bunch of hyypocrits.
She knows what free speech is.
Harriet could you please educate your side as to what free pseech is.
Thank you, MOI. I bow to your greatness. I hope you will excuse me if I don’t automatically join your side. I guess the wounds of being called unpatriotic and other names not so nice for opposing the war and GW Bush’s strange agenda are still too fresh.
MOI, it’s tough not to jerk one’s knee. And it’s even harder when the rhetoric clouds the discussion.
I have to confess that I started out on the other side of this issue as I read this blog, but as I thought it through I realized I was wrong.
Adrienne is also obviously not included in the bunch of hypocrits.
She knows what free speech is, too.
Adrienne could you please educate your side as to what free pseech is.
Dave G.
Yes I understand how one feels to be called awful names - did you catch some of the ones your fellow bloggers were calling me and my side earlier today.
Harriet
I thank you for showing us how important it is to have free speech - a marketplace of ideas.
Interesting backlash against John Kerry. I don’t recall Average Guy talking about all the medals he won…. I appreciate all the people who have sacrificed giving military service to our country. Whether they lost their lives, limbs or were unable to return to a normal life after the wars they fought. I find that I have a hard time stomaching someone disrespecting anyone - whether it is Kerry, McCain, Murtha - people who bravely served this country as citizen-soldiers and now serve politically. So Average Guy I suggest you shut up or put up….
“Harriet could you please educate your side as to what free pseech is.”
Please knock it off with the insinuations that “liberals are the only hypocrites”. I’m a liberal, and I don’t need you or anyone else to educate me or “save” my from my ideals. First, I think the group should have been allowed to speak at the high school. I don’t agree with their message, but kids need to learn all sides of the story to ensure informed decisions. Second, there is plenty of hypocrisy on both sides. For every reason you provide that all liberals are hypocrites, the left side can provide one for the right.
Because someone is one the left, it doesn’t mean he/she follows the strict guidelines you place on them. The world isn’t all black or all white, that’s why this bi-partisan BS needs to be eliminated if we ever want to get back on track.
Elle is also obviously not included in the bunch of hypocrits.
She knows what free speech is, too.
Elle could you please educate your side as to what free pseech is.
As for your hypocrits on both sides issue - I have always pointed out hypocrisy no matter it is.
TODAY it happens to be on the side of the left or liberals and it happens to be about free speech.
As for putting strict guidelines - did you read what the left bloggers were writing about the right bloggers today - without even knowing us.
Also it wasn’t the right that stopped free speech today - it was the left.
And if you think that the left anti-war crowd is for free speech of messages they don’t approve of - think again. go to protestwarriors dot com and see just how open the left anti-war crowd is to free speech.
Oh come on Elle. Don’t you know that MOI is as pure as the driven snow? That his side can do no wrong? And if you doubt that, just ask him. He’s the Dalai Lama in a sport coat.
“Interesting backlash against John Kerry. I don’t recall Average Guy talking about all the medals he won….”
Kerry’s anti Veit Nam war activities included Congressional hearings where he stated that american troops were killing babies, rapeing and torturing civilians as if it were normal behaivour and eveyone was doing it.
Whats to be proud of with this guy. How can anyone stand by him.
I’m returning to the question I posted earlier.
If this presentation was closed to the public, why was Congress Bachmann scheduled to be there? Isn’t she a member of the public?
And here is an additional question. Was it merely a coincidence that the only member of the public, i.e., Bachmann, scheduled to appear is an elected Republican who just happens to support this war? Bachmann is not, to my knowledge, a veteran, so she certainly could not add a veteran’s perspective to the presentation.
To me, this doesn’t pass the smell test.
jbd,
Your awarded medals by earning them. not winning them. A$$
Kerry, McCain, Murtha
There’s only one name on that list that has not degraded the efforts of our brave soldiers. Past or present.
“Bachmann is not, to my knowledge, a veteran, so she certainly could not add a veteran’s perspective to the presentation.
To me, this doesn’t pass the smell test.”
I have to agree with you JonR. That part does smell of politics.
MOI, for the record a libertarian that believes they should have been allowed to speak, sans Bachmann
Let me guess you never heard of or believe in the My Lai massacre. I don’t agree with John Kerry on all the issues he raised, but we did some absolutely horrific things to the people of Vietnam….
tluck - I guess you need to be a blue-blooded Republican to serve this country honorably, too bad most of the men and woman who are Democrats are not worthy in the most recent conflict..
Gosh GASHOLE, I stand corrected by your great wisdom and the fact that you earned your Medal of Honor in the Gulf War…….
“Let me guess you never heard of or believe in the My Lai massacre. I don’t agree with John Kerry on all the issues he raised, but we did some absolutely horrific things to the people of Vietnam….”
What an A-hole.
Another question implicit in this discussion today:
What does patriotism consist of?
My country, right or wrong?
Or the celebration of democracy and free speech, meaning we accept that not everyone will think as we do?
“I guess you need to be a blue-blooded Republican to serve this country honorably, too bad most of the men and woman who are Democrats are not worthy in the most recent conflict..”
What a AA_hole
tluck - I guess you need to be a blue-blooded Republican to serve this country honorably, too bad most of the men and woman who are Democrats are not worthy in the most recent conflict.
Where do you pull that out of what I said?
Never mind it just came to me.
Dave G.
I know you are angry at finally realizing that your side believes in censorship. I understand you need to take it out on someone else.
“Gosh GASHOLE, I stand corrected by your great wisdom and the fact that you earned your Medal of Honor in the Gulf War…….”
Oh Man. I hope that name don’t stick.
AHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHHAHHAHAHA
So GSAHA, why the name-calling? Did you serve in Vietnam? Do you have all the answers on John Kerry, Jack Murtha, GW Bush?
What gives?
JonR says:
“Was it merely a coincidence that the only member of the public, i.e., Bachmann, scheduled to appear is an elected Republican who just happens to support this war?”
Who else would you expect? Keith Hakim Ellison?
“So GSAHA, why the name-calling?
Did you serve in Vietnam?
Do you have all the answers on John Kerry, Jack Murtha, GW Bush?
What gives?”
Nothing. whats with you?
no. Does it matter?
no. Do you?
I just plain give a sh:t.
yeeesh. testosterone poisoning.
Just a point about reasoning, being a hypocrit doesn’t mean that you are wrong about the point in question (which seems implied here).
Imagine Dad sitting down with his children, telling them that they shouldn’t start smoking because there is a greater possibility that they will contract emphysema, increase the likelihood of developing cancer, etc. Right after the talk, Dad lights up a cigarette.
Is he a hypocrit? Yes
Is he wrong? No
GASAHA - It is a pleasure and honor to blog with such a distinguished name-caller as yourself…..Funny that everyone else seems able to carry on an intelligent discussion. Maybe you should get on Powerline and name-call there. It might liven up the blog…
“finally realizing that your side believes in censorship”
As does your side, Mr. MOI and if you can’t see that then I suspect that you are not as unbiased as you say you are.
jbd
joe st germain starts with this-
“As an honorably discharged Vietnam era vet”
then goes into this-
“A public school is no place for brainwashing young minds, what’s next arm bands, brown shirts, and goosestepping around the parking lot?”
As if his service is uniqely better than anyone else and he then can make disparging remarks about others who have or have not served. F**k him.
Then he says-
“but, hey rightwingers, lets invite some veterans to talk about war in out schools, and eat up some more valuable class room time that could be used for an actual education, instead of promoting an unjust war..WTF?”
I say WTF is with him.
then he says-
“Please tell me where i compare our solders with nazis?”
Who the heck was he referring to with this statement?-
“what’s next arm bands, brown shirts, and goosestepping”
then he says this-
“Not like you rightwing arm chair war mongers, who i’d bet never served their country in the military, just like Bush, who’s records of his service mysteriously dissapeared, or maybe Channey, who had 5 deferments”
God Dam it. You don’t need to serve in the military to have a valid opinion on war.
Just because someone has fought in combat does not mean he is a military strategist. It means he has combat experience.
Like I said F**k him.
But not today.
It is the left that is censoring today.
I think you are coming to that realization that your side is guilty of censorship. your eyes have been opened. you are no longer asleep. you have taken the red pill.
welcome to the real world.
“Huge Antarctic ice chunk collapses”
I’ll take on a couple of your questions, GSAHA, as we seem to have an ongoing discussion concerning GW.
1) I would say that a singular event such as this would be a result of a shift in climate, since it is not technically a “weather” event. It’s more along the lines of a geological event than weather.
2) If it is indeed the result of GW, AND it collapsed 15 years sooner than predicted, wouldn’t that suggest that the models are UNDER-estimating GW?
What do you think?
“It is a pleasure and honor to blog with such a distinguished name-caller as yourself”
jbd,
“GASHOLE” “GASAHA” aren’t names for name calling. Thank god. I was sincerly hurt.
Now KMA. AAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
GSAHA - I agree that his rhetoric is inflammatory, but my opinion on this current war is - Afghanistan - justified, worthwhile, necessary, to root out terrorists.
Iraq - not necessary, unbelievably costly (Trillion of $), needless loss of American and Iraqi lives, ruining our economy, high oil prices, we destroyed the “evil empire of the Soviet Union” by encircling them and basically embargoing their way of life, why not continue with same plan with Saddam and Iraq….. Where is Ronald Reagan when you needed him, everyone including me was scared of him……
“What do you think?”
jcf817,
I would say you are correct on No.1 and if the model is that far off it could swing either way better or worse. Maybe?
I’m still leaning towards the movement of the magnetic north as having some effect.
jbd,
I beleive the same for afganistan.
I beleived that Iraq was a threat. I beleived the intellegence reports and felt then was as go as any to get in there and do it. I did not beleive it would be a cake walk. I did not in my wildest dreams beleive we would fight it the way we did.
I do beleive we won the war.
And as soon as we stabilize the situation or an all out civil war developes we should get out.
jcf817,
Did you see this report?
ww.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23411799-7583,00.html
add another w at the beginning. It’s an interesting claim, to say the least.
I’m going to rephrase a question I asked earlier this afternoon, at 1:12 pm…to be precise.
Assume a group which was founded to oppose this war is scheduled to make a “non-political” presentation at Forest Lake High School. (The touring group in question was founded to support the war.) The event is closed to the public, but a member of the public and the only member of the public, an elected member of Congress who opposes the war, is scheduled to attend. The principal receives protests from people threatening to picket the event in protest and the principal then cancels the event.
How many of you screaming censorship-by-the-left would be expressing equal outrage?
Could Mrs. Clinton be considered a Veteran? She came under hostile enemy fire in Bosnia. Oh that’s right, she lied about that.
JonR,
Your statement would be more accurate if you said:
“The principal receives protests from LIBERALS threatening to picket the event in protest and the principal then cancels the event.”
JonR
Seeing as I am the loudest censorship-by-the-left I will answer the question.
I would wholeheartedly welcome the discorse AS LONG AS he allowed for both sides to present their sides to the issue.
See JonR - we on the right do believe in Free Speech - even Free Speech that we don’t like.
Now you see that we are different from the censoring left.
If you don’t believe me that the left censors go to the
protestwarrior dot com website and watch some of the videos.
You will see how open the left wants the dialogue.
OK, dazzle…I read the story.
They lost me at
“A great many founts of authority, from the Royal Society to the UN, most heads of government along with countless captains of industry, learned professors, commentators and journalists will be profoundly embarrassed. Let us hope it is a prolonged and chastening experience.”
What was an interesting conversation on climate quickly jumped the shark and became a diatribe against the conservation of our planet’s resources and those who think plundering our home is a bad idea.
jcf817,
The “Global Warming” hoax was created by the left to limit our freedoms and re-distribute wealth to the third world. The earth is now in a natural cooling cycle.
Hold your horses, MOI. You really think the left is guiltier of the supression of free speech than the right?
I’d say there’s plenty of blame on both sides.
I see myself as a civil libertarian, for example, but I really struggle with when and how pornography should be allowed.
My point, dazzle, is that it would have been a credible article if it had been a scientific article, but since it was an editorial, how can one trust anything that was said?
If god forbid things started to turn around in Iraq. How would that word get out? The Press won’t cover it and if 5 people die they will air that.
It would be interesting to see crime and violence statistics for both California and Iraq for the past 3 months.
Given the nature of Iraq I suspect they would be a little higher. But I’ll bet blog dollars its damn close.
So how would the word get out?
I think the number of murders in Washington DC alone compare to US deaths in Iraq. Maybe we should pull out of DC.
“if 5 people die they will air that.”
So, you don’t think that should be covered?
DaveG,
The liberal media goes out of their way to report bad news from Iraq, but tries to cover up the good news. I’m glad we didn’t have a hostile media during WWII, that would have made it much more difficult to defeat the Nazi’s.
“goes out of their way to report bad news from Iraq, but tries to cover up the good news”
And I trust that you have substantive proof of this allegation?
I would wholeheartedly welcome the discorse AS LONG AS he allowed for both sides to present their sides to the issue.
I agree that discourse from both sides should be allowed. However, I don’t see how that would have happened at Forest Lake High School, especially since an event “closed to the public” had the only member of the public scheduled to be present a Republican member of Congress who supports the war.
If you don’t believe me that the left censors go to the protestwarrior dot com website and watch some of the videos.
Surely you are not suggesting that this group represents all liberals.
d2si,
You still have not answered my question regarding that hypothetical example. Why not?
“And I trust that you have substantive proof of this allegation? ”
I’ll search the Star Democrat Tribune archives and give you all the examples of them accusing themselves of liberal bias in Iraq stories. I’ll get right on that Dave.
MOI-
pretty left leaning; don’t think that they needed to move the event but feel that any political agenda should have been kept out of it and Bachmann not included. Same if it had been an anti-war group, wouldn’t want Franken or whoever pushing their political agendas.
First of all evolution education should not be a political issue, it is science-it belongs in the school, creationism is religion it belongs in church. Politicians should shut up about that. Sex ed should also not be a political issue, I’d love it if the f-ing politicians would stay out of all of our genitalia. It should be a public health issue. Absolutely in sex ed classes kids should be taught about abstinence-I’m positive we were when I went to school. But it should be more about trying to keep our kids safe than pushing our politics and religion on them. Why do we educate our children? I always thought it was to enrich and equip them to be productive adults? Yes, it is for our future benefit as they will be in charge eventually. How are we doing that when we constantly are telling them that someone else will be deciding what they can see and hear?
I’m sorry if I’m not making sense, its been a long day.
a few more thoughts, for AG and Go etc.
Do you believe that atrocities have never been commited by American soldiers in any war?
If not, do you believe that it is okay because they are soldiers to do that (those actions are cancelled out by the fact that they are serving their country) so therefore to call any attention at all to it is wrong-even if that may prevent future atrocities from occurring?
There’s just so much garbage in our society, why couldn’t it be in our military as well-its certainly made its way into churches.
for the record, I believe the overwhelming majority of the military serve with honor and would rather these stories come out and perpetrators be punished and steps taken to prevent this than for it to be hushed up.
anyone else?
Mr. G, I cannot believe that you spoke poorly of the late, Abbie Hoffman. I love Abbie Hoffman. You should read his books. I think you would like what he has to say.
Abbie went to church naked. This is something I am in favor of. I want to go to church naked.
Maybe I would have more success meeting a woman at church, if I went there naked. I want to go to church naked, and meet the woman of my dreams. This a serious goal of mine.
JonR,
Thanks for the protestwarrior dot com link. I love this truth they have on a bumper sticker:
“Except for ending Salvery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, War has never solved anything!”
Would it make a difference if all local elected officials had been invited and Bachmann was the only one who had accepted?
Been in that situation before at events. I think that the MOST terrible thing we did to the Vietnamese was broadcast on tv. We abandoned them on the airfields and rooftops when we bailed out on them. It was one of the most shameful moments I experienced as a teen.
But as I said before….glad I left and don’t plan on ever returning. My kids go to a public high school that ROTC is one of the most popular programs.
Put me on the list for getting fake environmental films, pornographic novels for AP English, unsuccessful sex ed programs and evolution THEORY as fact out of the public schools. And I am SO right that I don’t even know how to spell wrong (I mean left).
“I want to go to church naked, and meet the woman of my dreams”
If I showed up at church naked, the women would scream and run for the doors. Not exactly my idea of fantasy.
d2si,
OK…don’t answer my question. I understand you have no answer.
Would it make a difference if all local elected officials had been invited and Bachmann was the only one who had accepted?
If the event was truly “closed to the public,” why would any elected offcial have been in attendance?
MOI: You should just give up the censorship-by-the-left argument, since it is either a non-argument or trivially true. You’re unstated premise is that all censorship is wrong, and that’s clearly not the case. If it were, then all laws against defamation, libel and slander should be repealed. Aside from that, any restrictions by the FCC are unjustifiable, and if I want to yell “Fire” in the movie-theater, that should be allowed as well. If we don’t accept these implications, then we don’t think that all forms of censorship are bad.
What’s worse, you seem to be contradicting yourself. You seem to be advocating that the “lefties” be censored. If free speech is for everyone, and everyone was just exercising their free speech by calling the school and saying what they thought (whether or not they wanted their children to spend time listening to these veterans), and it turned out that a large majority didn’t want their children there, and the principal made a decision based on the free speech of those parents, then who are we to complain? You seem to be implying that we should take that free speech away, or that those people who called in should just be ignored (censored) so that someone else isn’t. In other words, should we censor those who censored first? But now it is politics, who gets to decide what should be censored?
The whole argument is a load, and the “left does it more” vs. “right does it more” thing is totally uninteresting. It’s like listening to kids on a playground talk about whose Dad is “tougher”.
Right wing, that is.
and right.
“if 5 people die they will air that.”
“So, you don’t think that should be covered?”
God Dave the point is..5 people are murdered in California everyday and its not a national story.
God almighty can’t you whackjobs have a damn conversation…honest to god. A bunch of damn robots. Read your own sh^t…up there. God 90% is just damn nonsense.
Gezzzz…
JonR,
What question are you talking about? You’ll have to excuse me, I’m busy during the day.
“Except for Slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, War has never solved anything!”
Unfortunately, Mr. dare2, all those things still exist, in one for or another. So part of the statement is correct, “War has never solved anything!”
What war brings is more war. Violence begets violence. Taking up the sword means the sword will be taken up against you.
Fer crying out loud, keep the ELECTED officials out of the schools!!
I mean you all put them in office. My kids had all kinds of politicians and their wives visit their schools….3 of the 6 had Presidents or First Ladies visit. I didn’t have a heart attack because Hillary popped in and shook hands with my son. (Course I did make him wash with antibacterial soap a few extra times)
;)
Leland,
Are you saying that WWII didn’t solve anything? What happened to Hitler and his facists?
They are in the White House.
“So, you don’t think that should be covered?”
Repeat that using your own “Inner Jack@ss” voice Dave G…….Let me guess MASSer.
Oh boy that circus will be in town soon.
What question are you talking about? You’ll have to excuse me, I’m busy during the day.
See my 5:21 pm post.
Spinoza–it is my understanding that “a large majority” is not an accurate description. More like a loud and annoying minority that threatened to protest.
and your argument that those parents who complained should have the power of censorship falls flat when you consider that they could have just kept their little kiddies home to protect them from what they saw as an offense.
“God 90% is just damn nonsense.”
Point out what you think is nonsense. Be specific.
*******************
Leland,
Are you saying that WWII didn’t solve anything? What happened to Hitler and his facists?
“They are in the White House.”
********************************
This is exactly why we need Veterans to visit our kids in schools. The left has done serious damage to their patriotism.
Mr dare2, Like I said, fascism still lives in one form or another. The same with slavery, communism, Nazism.
My saying the White House is fascist, is too strong. I sincerely do think the current occupiers of the White House are the fascist’s first cousins, however.
Christ Ya can’t have Bachmann going around speaking at a “public school”. There is a separation of church and state and the right to gay marriage in the constitution.
Plus the words all over she’s the “He-She Anti-Christ”. And she’s not from the “Flower Family” like she tried to make everyone think.
That’s nonsense Dave. Recognize it. It’s my best Twin Cities MOVEON
Judges ?
rescued - No, that illustrates my point. They are sending their kids to school for an education, why should they have kept their kids home?
Your other implication seems to be that censorship of the minority should be allowed.
JonR says,
“Assume a group which was founded to oppose this war is scheduled to make a “non-political” presentation at Forest Lake High School.”
That would be a political presentation. Our military is an important part of America’s history, not radical leftist pacifists, JonR.
I never said those things. Nor do I believe them.
Leland do you really believe that? Go live overseas sometime for an extended period. Especially in a Middle Eastern country. Bring your Bible and your girlfriend with you. Then write back and tell us how it turns out.
I think the thing that is so aggravating about it is you can ask almost any public school student who their teachers plan to vote for in Nov. and they can tell you. So this wailing and gnashing of teeth over the politicizing of our schools is dumb. That cow already left the barn.
The current occupiers of the White House have run up a ten trillion dollar debt, and have the country bogged down in a senseless quagmire. They are no friend of America.
American patriots should be ready to head to the ballot box, to oust these treacherous rascals.
Leland,
Freedom isn’t free.
Goodnight everyone!
tinylitess:
God almighty can’t you whackjobs have a damn conversation…honest to god.
And then:
A bunch of damn robots
and then:
Read your own sh^t…up there. God 90% is just damn nonsense.
and then:
Repeat that using your own “Inner Jack@ss” voice Dave G…….Let me guess MASSer.
and then:
Oh boy that circus will be in town soon.
and then:
That’s nonsense Dave. Recognize it. It’s my best Twin Cities MOVEON
My question is: Who is it that can’t have a conversation? I ask a simple question and am barraged with insults. Nice tiny. And I should listen to you now because…?
Mr. rescued, I love America, and don’t plan on living anywhere else.
I agree that the schools have been politicized. I want feminism and homosexual advocacy out of the schools, also. All the nutty greenie stuff can also go. I agree the schools, unfortunately, are a place of indoctrination by radical lefty types. I still don’t want the warmongers talking to the children. If the warmongers have been stifled by the left, I am happy. Then that’s one good thing the lefties have done.
Mr Leland says-
“I want to go to church naked, and meet the woman of my dreams.”
Dave G says-
“If I showed up at church naked, the women would scream and run for the doors.”
There ya go Mr. Leland8.
Alls ya gotta do is be standing behind the door Dave G scare em through.
That would be a political presentation. Our military is an important part of America’s history, not radical leftist pacifists, JonR.
And the “presentation” of this pro-war group was not political? Was it merely coincidence that the only member of the public to appear at an event “closed to the public” is an elected Republican who supports Bush’s War?
Christ Ya can’t have Bachmann going around speaking at a “public school”.
This “presentation” at FLHS was closed to the public. So, obviously, Bachmann should not have been scheduled to appear. Isn’t Bachmann a member of the public?
“If god forbid things started to turn around in Iraq. How would that word get out? The Press won’t cover it and if 5 people die they will air that.”
Meaning frickin Wolf Blitzer isn’t going to come on and say “Nothing happen in Iraq Today”…then do that for 14 days …then the five people die and its a story.
I didn’t say it shouldn’t be covered and infact have included it in the “coverage sentance”
Your response; Mr Dave says “So, you don’t think that should be covered?”
Goodnight, Mr. dare2. Freedom is free. It is a natural state. A gift from God. God gives man freedom at birth. Man tries to destroy it.
The enemies of freedom come in many forms. Some are obvious, others come as wolves in sheep’s clothing. Some are more malevolent and dangerous than others. I have little concern about the latest fantasy boogeyman (al Qaeda?). I’m way more concerned about the REAL bad guys.
Your response; Mr Dave says “So, you don’t think that should be covered?”
Comes off better when you do your MOVEON Dork voice.
“Alls ya gotta do is be standing behind the door Dave G scare em through.”
That’s a great idea, Mr. G. If Dave G is up for it (excuse the pun), I know I am.
Mr. G, We haven’t heard from Khalid since you told him to get back in the pyramid. Now, that was an awful thing to say. I was very offended by that, and I would have told you so at the time, but I couldn’t type when I was ROTFLMAO.
I think I wrote a “double entendre” rather that a pun. I apologize. I never went to school very much after second grade.
a few more thoughts, for AG and Go etc.
Do you believe that atrocities have never been commited by American soldiers in any war?
bex, I’ll include myself as an “etc.”
Of course they have. War is hell. That does not excuse their actions.
Here’s the problem.
People on “the right” will say, “investigate and prosecute the people responsible.” We don’t do a perfect job of it but at least we do it.
This separates us from many, if not the majority of the worlds powers.
“The left” on the other hand will say things like “Abu Grahib is open under new management”. And “our troops are terroizing Iraqi’s”
Shameless rhetoric for political gain.
From Drudge:
OREGON ‘MAN’ CLAIMS HE’S PREGNANT…
Say it ain’t so, Go.
Tluck,
(Guess I picked a bad time to call myself ‘Rabbit.’)
Maybe they’ll let this Oregon man speak at high schools.
“Maybe they’ll let this Oregon man speak at high schools”
If they don’t, it would be censorship.
tluck, I’m tired of the right vs. left crap.
exploiting others pain and suffering for political (or monetary) gain is not the sole domain of “evil lefty’s” and is NEVER justifiable and ALWAYS evil.
Is all the finger pointing and ridiculing really doing anything to help humanity? Regardless of whether we should be in Iraq we are there, lets quit b—-ing about how we got there and start coming up with ways to get out without causing more harm. Not sure I believe its possible, but we should at least try.
No, Dare, freedom is not free-but our soldiers lives are not expendable, they deserve better than to be under the control of an administration that is too arrogant to admit they know d-ck about serving their country and refuse to listen to the advice of their own Generals who do. I don’t disagree with you about everything, but I’d love to hear you protest the deaths of soldiers as vehemently as you protest every single tax dollar. Freedom isn’t free financially either.
one last point-people who insist that every war we’ve been involved in is right and just are just as naive as those who believe none were.
“a few more thoughts, for AG and Go etc.
Do you believe that atrocities have never been commited by American soldiers in any war?”
I beleive that there have been incedents of excesive violence against civilians dureing times of war not limited to the battle field by american troops. To lable them atrocities are for the vanquished.
“tluck, I’m tired of the right vs. left crap.”
bex,
So am I.
That’s why I put “the left” and “the right” in quotes. I am not into labels. But on that particular issue I trend WAY “right” in the way I described.
“Is all the finger pointing and ridiculing really doing anything to help humanity? Regardless of whether we should be in Iraq we are there, lets quit b—-ing about how we got there and start coming up with ways to get out without causing more harm.Not sure I believe its possible, but we should at least try.”
I agree with every word!!
Especially “try”, seems like no one does that anymore.
“one last point-people who insist that every war we’ve been involved in is right and just are just as naive as those who believe none were”
Amen, Amen.
OREGON ‘MAN’ CLAIMS HE’S PREGNANT…
“Say it ain’t so, Go.”
Tluck, what…….
Well, we have a saying out here in timber country, ” nothin goes against the grain.” He must be from California or Iowa.
“(Guess I picked a bad time to call myself ‘Rabbit.’)
Maybe they’ll let this Oregon man speak at high schools.”
Rabbit what the…..
Oh I see. Funny guys. regular Bob Hopes. Jokes unlimited. yeah, good ones. laughing myself to sleep tonight I are. Geez, wheres tiny. Lets get some freakin three stoges sh:t going on here.
“Tluck, what…….”
Just checkin’ Go. Glad it ain’t so.
but, it was kind of a non-denial denial. Hmmm
“but, it was kind of a non-denial denial. Hmmm”
Oh yeah. Kind of like a non-f**K off F**CK OFF
Lotta political leaders use humor. As a matter of fact, a lot of them are funny as heck, even when they’re not trying to be.
Back on track… I think they should let the Vets speak… and let the people protest outside. That’s what our good old USA is all about. There really is more than one side to most issues.
Just hiding it all isn’t gonna help. When we were young we were shown the footage of all the horror of WWII, famine in Africa, and the struggle for civil rights…
And when I got home for dinner, guess what was on TV? The news. Not Barney or Sesame St…
“Obama church published Hamas terror manifesto
The latest revelation about published material from Obama’s church follows the discovery last week by BizzyBlog that Trinity United Church of Christ reprinted a manifesto by Hamas that defended terrorism as legitimate resistance, refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist and compared the terror group’s official charter – which calls for the murder of Jews – to America’s Declaration of Independence.”
“Obama e-mailed the Jewish Telegraphic Agency a statement regarding the Hamas publication in his church newsletter explaining he “certainly wasn’t in church when that outrageously wrong Los Angeles Times piece was re-printed in the bulletin.”
That’s too crazy, stevek, don’t scare me like that. April Fool’s isn’t ’til next week.
Is the church just reporting that–or do they actually endorse it?
heres a link to the story. just replace the +’s with t’s to get it to work
h++p://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59884
“a few more thoughts, for AG and Go etc.
Do you believe that atrocities have never been commited by American soldiers in any war?”
I would never say that, but I would say American soldiers cannot be compared to the atrocities committed by the Japs or Krauts in WWII or Islamic terrorists for more recent history. Let’s see, we take pictures of naked prisoners, they cut off heads and fingers!
Furthermore, if you’ve been a long time blogger here, you know from some of my previous entries a close family member was on the receiving end of war atrocities and earned multiple Purple Hearts and the Silver Star for his actions.
“The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (MPCA) outline a series of steps that homeowners should take to clean up broken fluorescent lights: Open windows, use rubber gloves, dispose of all material in sealed bags and remove it to a hazardous waste facility.”
“Environmentalists argue that most of the steps are the same as cleanup from any broken glass accident, except for the special disposal requirements.”
Now how the hell can you even print that last line? Who has done those things when they break a regular light bulb?
Nonsense..This whole frickin’ thing is nonsense. Brought about by a bunch of people that frankly are off their rockers. Environmentalists argue…christ proof of how disconnected these people are.
sorry, been busy, doubt anyone is paying attention anymore but whatever.
AG-I think I remember you saying something like that, and I hope no one thought I was implying that no other countries are guilty of doing terrible things in times of war. And yes it is possible, even probable that some have been worse. But I’m not lumping Abu Ghraib, or Gitmo in with this, first of all, I’m not sure I give a f— about taking naked pictures and whatever. Its not comparable in any way to the rape and murder of innocent civilians. That’s what I think are atrocities whether you’re “vanquished” (huh?) or “victorious” (I know that was Go and not you AG-just wanted to throw it in cuz its confusing me).
Let’s not further the bs idea that wartime excuses any behavior by any country’s soldiers.
Obviously other countries do it too, look at that assface milosevic-it still pi$$es me off to no end that he died before he could really be punished. I so wish i could believe in hell so that i could take comfort from the idea he’s being butt-raped and beaten for eternity.
I don’t know a lot of details of the history of war crimes of any country, including ours. I certainly don’t sit around studying and comparing them and I am not a self-hating American. I just don’t believe that it serves anyones interest to ignore these things and pretend it never happened and then call those who do admit to them “traitors” or “unpatriotic.” Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, its a tired line but it is true. We owe it to ourselves, our future generations, and the rest of the world to act responsibly and humanely. no more of this, i have mine so you can f off and die for all i care bs. How about some gd accountability among all of our citizens and politicians. Don’t whine and expect someone else to come take care of your problems, if you want something done, something changed, do it yourself!
That’s what I think are atrocities whether you’re “vanquished” (huh?) or “victorious” (I know that was Go and not you AG-just wanted to throw it in cuz its confusing me).
Let’s not further the bs idea that wartime excuses any behavior by any country’s soldiers.”
Bex,
What I meant was that the winners write the history. The losers (Vanquished, For lack of a better word) Will see actions by the other side as atrocities.
Rapeing and murder of civilians is wrong and should be condemed and prosecuted. But I cannot pass judgement on a combat soldiers behaivour because I have never been in combat. I have never had to make a life or death decision to take another life or lose mine. These guys will always have that. I can only imagine they will always be replaying it in their minds over and over. God Bless em.
Looks like the school principal, the superintendent and numerous self-important newspaper columnists all pulled a Clinton:
they lied and got caught lying.
Please leave a comment
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Katherine Kersten writes a weekly column for the Star Tribune's Sunday Opinion Exchange section. The column covers a broad range of topics reflecting her experiences and interests.
In this blog, she will address many of the same issues, albeit in quicker, less formal fashion, along with pointing readers to other sources of interesting online commentary and coverage.
Subscribe to Katherine Kersten
Learn more about RSS
Books I Love
- Underdevelopment is a State of Mind - Lawrence E. Harrison
- The Schools We Need: Why We Don’t Have Them – E.D. Hirsch
- The Closing of the American Mind – Allan Bloom
- The Repeal of Reticence – Rochelle Gurstein
- Political Pilgrims – Paul Hollander
- The Spirit of Democratic Capitalism – Michael Novak
- A Conflict of Visions – Thomas Sowell
- Adam Bede – George Eliot
- The Brothers Karamazov – Fyodor Dostoevsky
- The Lord of the Rings -- J. R. R. Tolkein
Great Minnesota Blogs
Indispensible Think Tanks
Movies You Won't Forget
On Education
- Thomas B. Fordham Foundation
- Center for Education Reform
- Core Knowledge Foundation
- Intercollegiate Studies Institute
On Marriage and the Family
Sites You Shouldn't Miss
Categories
- 2008 GOP Convention (11)
- Abstinence (3)
- ACLU (3)
- ADA (1)
- Adoption (1)
- Adversary Culture (3)
- Affirmative Action (3)
- AIDS (2)
- Airlines (1)
- Airport Taxi Drivers (3)
- Al Franken (5)
- Al Gore (3)
- Al Sharpton (1)
- Amy Klobuchar (1)
- Animal Rights (3)
- Anti-Americans (1)
- art (1)
- Assisted Suicide (1)
- Athletics (1)
- Bikes (5)
- Bill Clinton (1)
- Bin Laden (1)
- Boy Scouts (1)
- Boys (2)
- Brainerd Lakes (1)
- Bridge (1)
- Bridge Collapse (8)
- British (1)
- Canada (1)
- Charter schools (1)
- Children (14)
- China (1)
- Chris Stewert (1)
- Christianity (8)
- Christmas (6)
- Cities (2)
- Clarence Thomas (1)
- Collectors (1)
- Colleges (24)
- Congress (2)
- Conservatism (8)
- Constitution (5)
- Contraception (1)
- Courts (9)
- Courtship (1)
- Crime (12)
- Critical Mass (2)
- Culture Wars (6)
- Cyberspace (1)
- Darwin (1)
- Dating (2)
- Dawkins (1)
- Death (2)
- Death Penalty (2)
- Delta Queen (2)
- Discrimination (8)
- Disneyland (1)
- Diversity (9)
- Divorce (2)
- Don Samuels (1)
- Drugs (5)
- Economics (10)
- Education (32)
- Emperor has no clothes (1)
- Energy Policy (1)
- Environmental Issues (11)
- Ethanol (2)
- Eugenics (1)
- Europe (8)
- Evil (1)
- Experts (1)
- Falwell (1)
- Fathers (4)
- Feminists (3)
- First Minnesota Volunteers (1)
- Flying Imams (12)
- Francis of Assisi (1)
- Free Speech (2)
- free will (1)
- Gambling (1)
- Garrison Keillor (2)
- Gas Prices (1)
- Gay Issues (4)
- Gay Marriage (8)
- George Washington (1)
- Germany (1)
- Global Warming (11)
- government gone wild (2)
- Happiness (4)
- Hate Crimes (3)
- Health Care (10)
- Hillary Clinton (2)
- Home Schooling (2)
- Huck Finn (1)
- Indomitable Human Spirit (6)
- Intellectual Freedom (1)
- Iran (1)
- Iraq (22)
- Islam (3)
- James Lileks (1)
- Jane Fonda (1)
- Joe Lieberman (2)
- John Edwards (1)
- John Kerry (2)
- John McCain (2)
- John Wesley Powell (1)
- Journalists (2)
- Keith Ellison (5)
- Larry Craig (1)
- law enforcement (3)
- Lawyers (3)
- Legislature (5)
- Lori Swanson (1)
- Love (2)
- Main (555)
- Manhood (3)
- Mark Ritchie (1)
- Marriage (14)
- Media (9)
- medical ethics (1)
- Melancholia (1)
- Michael Moore (1)
- Michael Vick (1)
- Michelle Bachmann (2)
- Mike Hatch (2)
- Military (19)
- Mitt Romney (1)
- Monster Houses (1)
- Morality (12)
- Mortgage Crises (2)
- Mother Teresa (1)
- Movies (3)
- Multiculturalism (4)
- Museums (1)
- Music (1)
- Muslims (17)
- Nancy Pelosi (1)
- Navy SEALs (1)
- New Orleans (1)
- Norm Coleman (3)
- Norman Borlaug (1)
- North Korea (1)
- Novels (1)
- Obama (10)
- Oberstar (2)
- Olympics (1)
- Outward Bound (1)
- Overcoming (1)
- Parenting (10)
- Peter Singer (2)
- Peter Swanson (1)
- Political Correctness (3)
- Political Pilgrims (1)
- Politics (68)
- Popular Entertainment (3)
- Pornography (3)
- Poverty (5)
- Princess Diana (1)
- Prostitution (1)
- psychology (1)
- Race (16)
- Rachel Paulose (2)
- Radical Islam (3)
- Rap Music (3)
- Religion (21)
- Rights Talk (7)
- ROTC (1)
- Salvation Army (1)
- Sara Jane Olson (1)
- Sarah Palin (4)
- Science (15)
- Self Esteem (2)
- Sexual Infidelity (1)
- Sexuality (16)
- Single Parents (1)
- Sixties (1)
- Skewering the Author (4)
- Slavery (1)
- Smoking (2)
- Social Security (1)
- Solzhenitsyn (1)
- Somalis (2)
- Sports (1)
- Statistics (1)
- STDs (1)
- Stem Cells (2)
- Suicide (1)
- Sustainability (1)
- Sweden (1)
- Tatoos (1)
- Taxes (6)
- Terrorism (6)
- There for Another (8)
- Think Again Readers (5)
- Thomas More (2)
- Tim Pawlenty (6)
- TIZA (6)
- Tobacco (1)
- Transgender (1)
- University of MN (2)
- Ventura (2)
- Video games (2)
- Vietnam (5)
- Violence and the Media (1)
- Virtues and Values (9)
- Voting (3)
- Wal-Mart (1)
- Wealth and Poverty (6)
- Welfare (4)
- Western Culture (1)
- Woodstock (1)
- World War II (2)
- Young People (18)
Archives
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- November 2008
- October 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- June 2008
- May 2008
- April 2008
- March 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
- November 2007
- October 2007
- September 2007
- August 2007
- July 2007
- June 2007
- May 2007
- April 2007
- March 2007
- February 2007
- January 2007
- December 2006
- November 2006
- October 2006