Classical Charter Schools Make Learning Come Alive for Students
November 5th, 2007 – 8:44 AMIn September, a group of Twin Cities fourth-graders opened their textbooks to read these words: “Carissima Lepidina, iii idus Septembres, veni ad diem natalem meum. Vale, soror, anima mea, Claudia.”
Not your typical reading assignment for 9-year-olds. In fact, it’s a birthday party invitation in Latin from Claudia — a fictional young girl living in Roman Britain around 100 A.D. — to her friend Lepidina. Over the next year, the fourth-graders will follow these children’s adventures at a military camp, a state banquet and a funeral. They’ll also learn about the Trojan Horse, King Midas and his golden touch, and Roman gods such as Jupiter and Minerva.
Welcome to Seven Hills Classical Academy in Bloomington, a K-5 charter school in its second year. The school is named after the seven hills on which Rome was built, as well as the seven liberal arts. It’s one of five classical charter schools to open in the Twin Cities in the last four years. They include K-8 Paideia Academy in Apple Valley, K-8 Nova Classical Academy in St. Paul, K-10 St. Croix Preparatory Academy in Stillwater and 6-12 Eagle Ridge Academy in Eden Prairie.
Latin is just one aspect of a classical curriculum, says Jerry Reedy, Seven Hills’ founder and a retired professor of Greek and Latin at Macalester College in St. Paul. Classical education is the opposite of the “progressive” approach that has dominated American education for 60 years, he explains. “Progressive education focuses on ‘process’ — vague, touchy-feely ‘problem-solving and life skills,’” says Reedy. “Classical education focuses on ‘content’ — the fact-based knowledge necessary to transmit a culture.”
When my own kids were in the early grades, they tended to study familiar, “relevant” topics — neighborhood helpers (police officers or firefighters) or cities and suburbs. Too often, the result was yawns. Seven Hills whets kids’ appetite for knowledge by introducing exciting and unfamiliar subjects. First-graders explore Egyptian pyramids, Mesopotamian cuneiform writing, American colonial history, Aesop’s Fables, Mozart, opera, jazz and the art of Leonardo da Vinci.
Classical education is a “fine balance,” says Seven Hills Principal Margaret O’Brien. It pairs basic skills — “having your multiplication tables down like you know your name” — with “Socratic discussions.” Those are dynamic student-generated debates about everything from life on the Oregon Trail to the roots of terrorism.
Latin is an integral part of this vision, says O’Brien. It teaches youngsters about grammar and expands their vocabulary, while laying the foundation for later language-learning. Seven Hills kids learn Spanish in grades 1 through 4, and then study Latin in grades 4 and 5.
But isn’t Latin just a dead language — one we oldsters struggled to avoid in high school? “The kids gobble it up,” says O’Brien. “Last year on my birthday, they surprised me in the lunchroom by singing ‘Happy Birthday’ in Latin. And they put together a skit on the Roman phrase ‘carpe diem‘ - ’seize the day.’”
Parents are standing in line for this sort of education. “Before Seven Hills opened last year, we were hoping for 125 kids,” says O’Brien. “We ended up with 257 signed registrations and a 100-student waiting list.” Today, students hail from 35 zip codes.
“Parents want the education for their kids that they never got themselves,” explains Reedy. “They’ve discovered that they were shortchanged.”
Sue Pearce of Richfield, the parent of two Seven Hills students, says she sees constant evidence of her kids’ love of learning. Last year, for example, her first-grade daughter eagerly rushed home to teach her preschool sister the astronomy facts she had learned that day. “She’d teach her sister about the planets, the constellations and how stars are born,” says Pearce. “She even knew that Pluto is no longer considered a planet.”
O’Brien has many similar stories. She tells of one rambunctious 6-year-old boy who was often sent to her office “to talk about paying attention, following the rules.” One day, however, he appeared outside her door for a different reason. “The excitement was just exploding out of him as he held up his hands, red with clay,” she recalls. “Look, ‘Ms. O’Brien,’ he shouted, ‘we made Mayan pots!’ He couldn’t wait to tell me all the fascinating things he was learning about the Mayans. It gave me goose-bumps.”
159 Responses to "Classical Charter Schools Make Learning Come Alive for Students"
We made wooden napkin holders in woodshop one time…That was pretty cool. And we made Welsh rabbit in foods too. But it wasn’t really a rabbit, I didn’t get that.
While often called “Welsh rabbit,” the dish is more correctly referred to as “Welsh rarebit,” a cheese sauce served on toast points. In the traditional dish, no meat is included in the recipe. I’m surprised that your instructor did not explain this fact to the class.
And the point of this article is?
Our PHED teacher in elementary school let us play dodge ball to Argent’s “Hold Your Head Up” once. That was pretty cool………..
“instructor did not explain this fact to the class”
Hey it was the 7th grade I was probably paying more attention to the continuing development of Mary Ann then I was the instructor.
“And the point of this article is?”
Liberal Arts bad!!!! ARRRRR!!!
- Kerstenstein
I found it ironic that KK would choose to write about a Macalester professor as a model for good education ideas. See Mac wasnt ALL bad.
I guess I don’t get it, when I was that age we had facts tests in math to drill in those multiplication tables, had to do plenty of book reports, memorized the first 20 or so elements on the periodic table, and (the bane of my existence) plenty of spelling tests. When I was in high school I learned a lot more process of learning stuff, and a lot more still in college. *But maybe it is just because I went to a rural school up north and as we all know everything that happens in rural America is inherently better than things that happen in urban America.*
I think this school sounds interesting. If I had a kid, I might check it out. However, I am sad (but not surprised) to see another attack against public schools in the phrase: “the ‘progressive’ approach that has dominated American education for 60 years.” Granted, she lets the professor explain it, but as he is not an education professor, I don’t think he’s the most reliable source for a critique of American education.
Katherine, do you ever go to a regular public school and look for good things being done?
*But maybe it is just because I went to a rural school up north and as we all know everything that happens in rural America is inherently better than things that happen in urban America.*
I have to Agree 99% with you on that one backpacker.
“everything that happens in rural America is inherently better than things that happen in urban America.”
I don’t think so… Look at what’s happened in rural America… KKK activity, Matthew Shepherd being murdered, that person who burned a cross in his yard in Blaine, hair from the 80s still in effect. Rural America is different, not better.
But bdaniel367 that would mean not drinking the neo-con cool-aid, just repeat after me, EVERYTHING is better when the private sector is in charge, EVERYTHING is better when the private sector is in charge…
“Matthew Shepherd being murdered, that person who burned a cross in his yard in Blaine”
Or that cross burning in Anoka !!!!
Give me a break…a couple of teenage Hillbillies drivin’ around with a noose tied to there piece of s^%$ pickup truck……….and its news..makes the C.N.N. headlines
Are charter schools providing the appropriate education or just a different kind of education? I fail to understand how “liberal arts” is justified as core education and how does this prepare the students with the skills required to function in the real world?
From what I have seen the education system is seriously failing the students now. Many do not know how to read, structure a sentence or have the ability to make change without a machine telling them how much to give back to the customer.
Tiny, You know what they say - Good news is no news.
Maybe if the public schools weren’t preoccupied drilling kids to pass the No Child Left Behind tests, they would have time to teach them Latin and make Mayan pots.
I fail to understand how “liberal arts” is justified as core education and how does this prepare the students with the skills required to function in the real world?
You can’t be serious!
“Progressive education focuses on ‘process’ — vague, touchy-feely ‘problem-solving and life skills,’” says Reedy. “Classical education focuses on ‘content’ — the fact-based knowledge necessary to transmit a culture.”
Classical education sounds exactly like No Child Left Behind - teach them a bunch of facts, but nothing about problem solving or life skills. Yeah, I guess life skills are highly over-rated. And problem solving? Even diplomats don’t need that these days. Problems are best solved with guns and lawyers.
On the plus side, maybe somewhere along the line someone will teach these kids how to actually apply the knowledge they have about ancient civilizations - like how not to repeat their mistakes.
Aaron, this charter school’s kids also are taking NCLB, so sorry, that argument doesn’t apply. Charters = public schools….
Oh, and that’s directed to bdaniel and backpacker as well. This charter IS a public school. You know, this charter that Kersten is applauding? Yeah, that’s the one.
I can see how Latin would be a valuable language to learn. It’s used as a basis for many words in the English language…Sixty percent of the English vocabulary has its roots in Latin.
Speaking of the joy of learning. I got to teach my daughter, who is in second grade, how to “carry the one”. She is getting really excited about math, to the point where she makes up her own math problems in her spare time.
The little joys of being a non-custodial parent…
“I fail to understand how “liberal arts” is justified as core education and how does this prepare the students with the skills required to function in the real world?”
That latte you order after lunch isn’t going to make itself, is it?
I’m just hoping that the person I place my order with at lunch pushes the right Happy Meal button, LOL!
Gee, it looks like the Richard Craniums are all on today.
ErinMN,
thanks for the correction on Seven Hills being accountable to NCLB testing. I’ll admit I was shooting from the hip there.
From their own website:
Seven Hills is supported by tax dollars but governed by its own board of directors, and is independent of the Bloomington School District. Thus we have the autonomy to choose our own programs, schedule, staff, and policies, but are subject to mandatory testing requirements. All teachers are licensed.
Seven Hills is sponsored by the Friends of Ascension Foundation, formed to help academically rigorous charter schools. Friends of Ascension provides ongoing support and oversight to the Academy.
While I stand at least partially corrected, I think though that you may be missing a distinction between a charter school that receives public funds and an actual public school. Any of you definitively in the know on this point?
I hope these classical charter schools include logic in their curriculum, as it appears to be a subject with which a large number of people are unfamiliar.
Thanks, Aaron, for finding the source information. I agree. There is a big difference between a charter school and the traditional public school.
I am, Aaron. They are subject to the same NCLB testing as all public schools. They *are a public school.* They don’t just receive some public money, their dollars flow through the students’ resident districts (and therefore cause some consternation because those funds aren’t available to the traditional districts) The areas in which they are not subject to the same laws as other public schools are ones that allow them to operate a bit more independently (from unions, etc) but you can see the list in MN statutes at 124D.10 if you’re interested. I work in the field.
Bdaniel, what are you saying are the “big differences” between a charter and OTHER public schools?
ErinMN: A charter school is a public/private partnership, they are funded by tax dollars but the “charter” that gives them life is a private organization sometime non-profit sometime for profit. The private organization is the group that runs the school, tax payers just foot the bill. Also I am not sure if they have to follow NCLB, many do but I don’t know if they have to.
Private organizations do not run charter schools. They act as sponsors only, which is a sort of liaison role, but the government still runs the charter schools. Sponsors do not have to be private, in fact the state’s dept of ed is the sponsor for several schools. School districts have also sponsored charter schools. Charters are run by their boards, which are different from their sponsors and within the first few years shift over to a teacher-dominated board anyway. It’s a common misperception, but it is incorrect to say charters are ANYTHING BUT PUBLIC SCHOOLS. And yes, they do have to “follow NCLB.”
I have a kid at Nova (one of the public charter schools mentioned above), so I thought I’d explain the classical model a little more indepth than Kristen did (without hopefully getting too long-winded).
Many classical schools base their approach to education in part on the idea that kids learn by rote very well when they are young (quick: how many advertising jingles can you remember from when you were a little kid?) and then can progress in their learning from there. At Nova (and many other classical schools), children in grades 1-4 are working on the basics of each subject, and there is lots of memorization. This is the grammar stage. Grades 5-8 are in the logic stage; the kids learn to put the basics they have been learning together to answer the question “why.” They are learning to reason. Grades 9-12 (Nova does not yet offer these grades) are in the rhetoric stage; the kids learn to express their opinions on the subject matter persuasively.
Children study history in order three times in grades 1-12, each time at a level appropriate for the stage the children are in. Grades 1, 5 and 9 focus on the ancients; grades 2, 6 and 10 focus on the Middles Ages and early Rennaisance; grades 3, 7 and 11 focus on the late Rennaisance through about 1850; and grades 4, 8 and 12 focus on the 1850s to contemporary times. Art, music and, to some extent, literature are tied into this historical progression.
My husband and I chose a classical education for our child because the curriculum made sense to us. In addition, while the schools in our area aren’t bad, I went to excellent (public) schools when I was growing up, and I wanted an even better education for my child… and the curriculum at our local schools looks like a step down, not a step up. I have no idea whether one can credit Nova for how my daughter is doing — she has been there since 1st grade, and you’d really need a twins study for scientifically valid results — but when she was in kindergarten, I was told she was average, and she is now reading above grade level and performing above average on standarized tests.
Hope that helps explain classical education a little more!
Hi, all,
I finished college before any of this even began happening, so I have a longer, different, and I think better perspective than anyone a generation or two younger than I am.
Education is the process of imparting knowledge by those who have it to those who don’t.
Yes, I have heard the argument that the word “educate” comes from the Latin “educere” meaning “to draw out,” presumably to draw out of the child its innate gifts and abilities. That’s fine as far as it goes, BUT:
There are two Latin verbs, very similar; the first is above. The second, “educare,” means simply to bring up, rear, or educate. And I suspect very strongly that the PC preference of “educere” over “educare” was a deliberate manipulation. (That, however, is another subject.)
When I was in grade school, we were expected to memorize almost everything. The earlier something goes into the child’s brain, the longer and better it sticks. And it was a process of repetition, repetition, repetition. It seems to me the plainest common sense that in general the more you do something, the better you get at it. Very few kids are so bright they pick something up the first time; similarly, very few are so dim they never get it. I think a good teacher will see the differences and adjust accordingly.
(I remember one kid in second grade who had a terrible time with arithmetic, and by spring it was obvious he wouldn’t be promoted, so Sister worked with him all summer on his arithmetic so he could be. I don’t recall him having any trouble after that; evidently something clicked.)
I had the same experience with calculus at the U of M in 1963 and 1964. It just would not “click,” it was too abstract, so I changed colleges. About 25 years later, one of the engineers at MnDOT explained the underlying principles to me in about ten minutes, and finally it all clicked. Too late for professional advancement, but I still think calculus is “cool, copacetic, and groovy.”
I’m very happy I was exposed to Latin at an early age, and had two years of it in high school - with memorization and repetition! I can still pick my way through a Latin text, and I find that my Latin is a great help in picking up Spanish.
Hi, all,
Thank you, Kate, for explaining it better than I could!
ErinMN: Sorry then I was misinformed, one of my high school buddies teaches at a charter school up north and I was just going on what he told me. I guess the question I would as then is what is the point of charter schools? Why divert funds from one school to another? I am a big fan of the old fashioned public schools that I went to, I know a lot of kids that drove the 30 miles for the alternative (charter or private) and I don’t see how their experience was better than mine. In a few cases I think my education in Science was far superior to others. So it is great these kids are learning Latin why not just teach Latin in every school. Or have every kid from grades 1-12 take Spanish or French or Chinese?
Erin, I would say the biggest difference is requirements of teachers and control of curriuclum. In our district, we have a school board that approves our curriculum (based on state standards). If people in the community (regardless of whether they have kids in the school) disagree with what we are teaching, they can challenge it to the school board. We are held more accountable for meeting state standards than charter schools, and we have to meet the needs of all students, not just the ones who choose to come to our district. I think charter schools have some benefits, but they can specialize in a certain group of kids or ideas or subjects that we, as a public/state run school cannot. While charter schools receive public funds, they are not the same as the traditional public school and to say they are is erroneous.
Another question:
Are charter schools a form of segregation?
That being said, it sounds like the Nova School is interesting and worth looking into. Thank you, Kate, for explaining it, and it sounds like you are very involved in your childrens’ education. We don’t see many parents like you in my district.
Diamondgirl…
they can be.
I would have enjoyed this column about a different type of school and the curriculum it provides much more if Mr. Reedy didn’t feel it was necessary to take a cheap shot at “Progressive” education. His view of the past 60 years of education are much different than mine. His definition doesn’t fit the type of education I received during that time.
And finally, yes, it’s wonderful to tout the success of a school when it can cherry-pick its students. Again, who is going to educate those with special needs or those difficult students without the necessary familial support? Seven Hills? I doubt it.
It’s really a common issue, backpacker, so no worries. Charters are offered as an option that is free to parents, as one thing, with the understanding that competition often improves all the participants even as it distresses those who previously held a monopoly. Additionally, charters have much more flexibility and can be more innovative. They have a different governing structure that is more teacher-driven, but there are no heirarchical teacher union issues that may tend to limit schools’ options.
Charters are mission-driven, meaning they can address certain populations or needs that big old fashioned schools (as you put it) probably can’t: for example, a number of charters are language immersion. Others are arts-focused, or experiential learning styles. Kersten pointed out the success in core knowledge or classical schools.
This isn’t even touching on some of the other benefits like oftentimes small class sizes or how it can be easier for parents to be very involved than they can be in a megaschool. Really, parents having options can bring out the best in all the schools.
(p.s. I had Latin in my regular fairly rurual high school in the late 80s, but that’s just because we were lucky to have someone in the community who could teach it. Semper ubi sub ubi… ;-) )
Hi, all,
EBF, I agree that logic should be a required subject somewhere in the K-12 curriculum. All during my U of M career I wanted to take the course, but it was always full. (Ditto “Language and Culture.”) I have the book, though, and some time when I have nothing to do (much laughter here) I’ll start in on it.
In the state Language Arts standards, logic and fallacies are required for grades 9-12.
Thanks, Erin, for explaining your view of charter schools. I would argue that you explained the difference between traditional public schools and charter schools sufficiently to answer your own question about the differences.
Here I am again. Charters cannot cherry-pick their students, folks. Quoting from statute: “a charter school may not limit admission to pupils on the basis of intellectual ability, measures of achievement or aptitude, or athletic activity.” So yes, they are educating special ed students, and actually in higher proportions in many cases than the traditional districts. Please repeat after me: charters are public schools. Charters are public schools.
And diamondgirl, if there is segregation, it’s self-imposed. Please read above from the statute. Trust me, there are no charters that only allow white anglo kids or something. In fact, the biggest users of charters have been the folks on the north side of Mpls, so you might want to check in with them about why they’ve MADE THAT CHOICE.
Bdaniel: theoretically you likely would have MORE control over curriculum in a charter as a parent than in a trad district. Far fewer voices and you can be on the board just like you can in a trad district.
Still dislike charters? Come on! It’s okay to like something that Kersten wrote, really. She’s praising a public school and deserves your commendation and not misinformed cheap shots.
ErinMN: I had French but I think my teacher was Vichy. I guess I can see that my friend teaches at a school that is charted on environmental learning. But I still don’t think those kids are getting the Chemistry and Biology that I got, but my teachers where old school. After high school I took General Bio never cracked the book and got a B. That’s another thing, to attract that kind of teacher schools really should pay better.
Bdaniel, am not at all sure to what you’re alluding, but I’m not here to explain my view of charters. I’m here to tell you what the facts are about charter school law, since that’s something that lots of people don’t understand. Whether you think it’s implying a view–hey. But know the facts first and then view away, no worries.
Backpacker, environmental learning is a BIG segment of the charter population. Am also not sure whether it works or not, am agnostic. I’d say I was on the borders of old school and new wave stuff when I was a kid and therefore saw some of both. Parents were definitely old school, so I had my memorization at home to make up for any experiental stuff that wasn’t “taking” in school!
Thing is, charters can be old school. Charters also can be environment-based. They are a school of choice and if they don’t pan out, they don’t have guaranteed clientele and will fold. Happens every year.
Perhaps Erin should attend a school on learning how not to talk down to people.
Cute, diamond girl. Not at all sure you could be teaching it?
But I should apologize if I hurt your feelings, so sorry.
Your blogs are almost as annoying as marka aka: blahblah…….. I’ve heard of a couple of 4 letter words that describe women with your attitude.
ErinMN: I have to admit you turned me around on Charter schools. Not that I was ever really against them I guess I just did not understand them. I guess I would just reiterate what I said above that more money needs to go to schools in general and teachers should be paid better so teaching as a profession competes with other skill vocations.
Uh, Erin, sorry, you dont have the power to hurt my feelings, LOL! I just find your condescending attitude toward others immature and annoying.
FC-
Logic used to be everyday in gradeschool. It was called DodgeBall. Not sure if they use it anymore.
Diamondgrl,
Why dont you go watch a few Episodes of Dog the Bounty Hunter?
All of us here know what your all about.
Should I do that while you’re watching Barney?
Don’t you think it’s fairly presumptious to speak for others?
Gosh Diamondgirl, I had no idea you were on such a short fuse! All I did was tell you that you were objectively wrong and you are already coming up with 4 letter words for me? Interesting rejoinder, but I reiterate that I am sorry I made you sad and angry. Hope you feel better soon!
Backpacker: that was nice to say, so thank you. I am well aware there are flaws in the system, but MN was the first state with a charter school and we are well on our way to a pretty good system of choices and options for people who aren’t happy with their current school or just want to try something different for different kids.
ERIN, I’m not sure I agree with you….but tell me, in an instance like this where a school has more applicants than spots, how are students selected?
As I said, Erin, you don’t have the power to make me “feel” anything. That was a sanctimonious statement if I’ve ever encountered one.
“Should I do that while you’re watching Barney?”
:)
DG,
99% of us here know your feelings on immigrants, dark people, poor people, etc….
You’re anti…
Hi Floyd. I’m happy to try to explain it, but it’s a little tricky. Essentially, charters can limit their size by age group or grade level, so when they are at max they have a lottery in which siblings of already-enrolled students have a preference.
Not all immigrants. I’m selective. How does that make me anti American? Because my views differ from your views? Because I don’t think like you?
Okay Diamondgirl, fairynuff! That you’re coming up with names to call me based on a disagreement led me to believe I ruffled you somehow. Am now fully aware that you came to me pre-ruffled and it wasn’t my doing at all. I’m just happy to have been able to help you understand how charters fit into the overall public school system. So we’re both happy now!
But one question Erin. It follows the question that Floyd presented. You did give an answer for the selection of students when the school is at capacity. But how does the selection of the intitial students take place. If there is initially room for 100 students and there are 150 applications how is the choice determined?
Lottery.
“How does that make me anti American?”
I didnt say anti american. I said you were anti dark, poor and immigrant.
“Because my views differ from your views?”
I choose to judge people on their actions and their charecotr. You choose other criteria.
99% of us here know your feelings on immigrants, dark people, poor people, etc….
left out FRUITCAKES
Hi, all,
Thanks, Viking. We had dodgeball too, plus a fairly ferocious game called pullaway (or pom-pom-pullaway). It could be played either touch or tackle. One boy was “it” and stood in the center of the field in an attempt to catch any of the other boys running the forty yards or so of dirt field from sidewalk to alley. Anyone caught became part of the catching team, and the game went on till everyone was caught.
One time (I think it was sixth grade) we were playing it tackle - left all the little kids out - and I was the last one not caught. I think I ran the field twice without getting caught; the second time I was brought down but managed to wriggle far enough to slap the alley pavement with my hand.
Excellent course in logic, yes! When twisting, evasion, ducking, and backtracking don’t work, use brute force. (Very large grin here.) Hitting wasn’t allowed, by the way, and we enforced our own rules.
Sorry Tiny,
DG hates the fruitcakes too.
blah squared-
Left out nutjobs
Tiny Lites say “left out FRUITCAKES”
We’ll you know they are pushing the Christmas shopping season on us earlier and earlier. I’m sure you can get your fill of Christmas Fruitcakes at any fine story right now.
Viking,
Dang it. So many people its hard to keep track.
fine store…not fine story….guess I should have pushed my school to offer Latin.
Hmmm…TinyLites = BornDemocrat?
“We’ll you know they are pushing the Christmas shopping season”
Well then St.Paul and Minneapolis must be the FRUITCAKE capital of the world then..
Try again GHS
TinyLites = BornDemocrat?
Nope Tiny just Tiny
blahblahblahblah=BornDemocrat?
GHS,
Very wrong. You been smoking some of Tiny’s stuff?
diamondgrl - I don’t see anything condescending in Erin’s messages at all. Just information. You want condescending, check out marketplace of ideas and his “you’re WRONG, WRONG, WRONG” attitude toward anyone who isn’t a lawyer.
I remember a few years ago the Minneapolis Public Schools hired a private consulting firm to run the schools. Not sure if that’s still the case, but I’m wondering if anyone knows how that would fit into this scenario. It wouldn’t be a charter, but what would it be?
“blahblahblahblah=BornDemocrat?”
Id suggest giving up….
“Parents want the education for their kids that they never got themselves,” explains Reedy. “They’ve discovered that they were shortchanged.”
All Parents want a better education for their children than what they got growing up.
If Charter Schools have a waiting list then they are not Public. Are they publicly funded?
What is the social/economic break down of the Parents/students that attend these schools?
Anybody? Bueller? Bueller?
Never mind, I went back and read ErinMN Posts. Huh.
Still don’t get how the public can fund a school thats enrolled by lottery.
Why can’t this model/fundind be extended to all truly public schools?
ErinMN: I did not mean to say that my teachers made me memorize stuff “once you are in high school you don’t need to memorize the periodic table and you can use a calculator that is why someone else went to the trouble of making a periodic table and a calculator” old man Chem. Teacher. What I meant to say is that my teachers never taught down to us, they never played to the lowest common denominator. Usually they taught past us so even the most skilled would have to work to keep up. I don’t know if teachers still teach that way. It is a lot of work and it would cause problems with passing standardized tests.
A friend of mine, who happens to be bi-racial (GASP!) has 2 children in a charter school. From what she tells me, the kids really like it and the teachers are much more communicative with the parents than what I’m hearing about public schools. This may be due to the smaller class sizes, enabling the teachers to give their students more individual attention where it is needed.
Tiny-
How come we don’t see stories like this in American news?
www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22701665-2703,00.html
Magnet schools have a similar function as charter schools and entirely public. In Minneapolis, each high school has a magnet school within the school — like the cosmetology or education/public service magnets at Edison High School. These do have lotteries and require certain levels of performance for non-attendance boundary students.
DG,
Do you think the parents of your friend had a problem with said relationship?
A problem? Not sure what you mean. Her mom is white, her dad is black. She is mixed; married to a black man.
But to go back a bit further. Her grandmother has an issue with my friend being bi-racial.
Wasnt it you who suggested deep down we’d all have a problem with our kids bringing home a person of a different color to marry? Im wondering about your friends experience. Her grandparents maybe had a problem with it?
“Her grandmother has an issue with my friend being bi-racial.”
Knowing your friend, do you sympathize with Grandma? Wait of course you do, you said as much before.
Too many problems to even discuss.
bdaniel367 - I’m familiar with the magnet programs, but not sure they’re effective. When I was in high school, kids signed up for them because they were “easy A’s”. It’s essentially trade school for those who won’t be able to afford it after high school.
I always viewed it as the public schools “apology” to students. Sorry we didn’t actually teach you much, so I guess we should at least train you on a skill so you’ll be employable.
viking - Doesn’t the violence in Iraq usually decrease around the religious holidays? I’ve seen some reports saying October was a quiet month, then others stating that 2007 is on track to be a record year for deaths. It’s hard to know what to believe. Seems like they’ll twist the data depending on what they want people to think.
blahx4, I can understand both sides of the issues. Can you?
Just wanted to throw in my thoughts here–
I went to Minnesota public school K-12 and got a pretty good education. It wasn’t so much the material I was being taught (which wasn’t bad), but the teachers I had who made me ambitious to learn more and do more. You can learn all you want to about anything and everything, but if you do nothing with it, it’s useless.
After high school, I went to a liberal arts college for four years and the classes I was required to take for general credits did give me a broad view on how to apply what I’ve learned. Funny thing is, I remember more of what I learned from the people at college than my classes–and the prior has definitely helped me more in the real world.
I think charter schools generally have a better reputation because they hire better teachers–because they can afford it.
Hi, all,
To the best of my memory, calculators didn’t appear even on the U of M campus till about 1964 or 1965. Everything I learned K-14 was memorized. I do use a calculator now, of course, but I have my reservations about them for K-12.
A calculator won’t give the right answer unless you press the right buttons; and if you don’t have a previous sense of what the answer ought to be, you can make a mistake without knowing it.
You don’t always have a calculator handy (though for all I know some cell phones miught have them).
Depending on a calculator weakens mental muscles.
No calculator or computer can be as powerful or flexible as the human mind.
I remember when Rod Carew’s daughter needed a bone marrow transplant but they couldn’t find a donor because she was Panamanian-Jewish, and that made it difficult to find a match. At the time, I had relatives who said it was their own fault and proof that people should only marry their own kind. Of course, they didn’t see that if mixed marriages were more acceptable maybe they would’ve found a match. I guess they figured it would be easier to pile into the ‘Wayback Machine’ and undo all the mixed marriages.
“At the time, I had relatives who said it was their own fault and proof that people should only marry their own kind.”
Not proof, but there is a certain logic. There is some reason why the races were separated on different continents to begin with……………
dazzleman - I’d agree the teachers are at least, if not more, important as the curriculum. You can have a really great lesson plan, but if it’s taught by a dud who cares? The best classes I’ve had weren’t necessarily because of the content, but because of the teacher. Makes a good point for giving public schools more money for teachers.
Former Carrier - We could use calculators in some high school classes, but not on tests. Now I’m shocked when my niece and nephew don’t even know how to do long division as part of an exercise. Everyone should be able to do a certain amount of mental math or be prepared to be ripped off later in life.
“blahx4, I can understand both sides of the issues. Can you?”
No. I dont look at color or race.
You may not want a memeber of your family bringing home a person of a different color or race but thats not a concern of mine.
Are you trying to convince yourself?
newbiz-
Ramadan is a time for inner reflection and devotion to Allah. If they believe Allah is telling them to kill infidels (christians, jews, etc.)then they are more ’spiritual’ in their devotion to suicide bombings and other fun stuff. Historically Ramadan sees an increase in violence, this year it was down about 40% according to some reports. (99% for tiny)
In Afghanistan the violence seems to increase in the spring due to the weather, that’s when the tallibunnies come down from the mountains.
“There is some reason why the races were separated on different continents to begin with……………”
Then why did we invent boats?
Not proof, but there is a certain logic. There is some reason why the races were separated on different continents to begin with……………
DG, you are aware that homo sapians most likely originated in Africa and then spread throughout the continents? Or are you refering to the space aliens?
“Are you trying to convince yourself?”
Nope. Just as you arent ashamed of your views, Im not either.
“There is some reason why the races were separated on different continents to begin with.”
To begin with, there weren’t separate continents. That’s why they call it ‘continental drift’. I don’t seriously believe God intended people to live in isolation from one another.
FC: The idea is that by the time someone is in high school they should have the background to use the calculator. If you don’t use a calculator in high school chem. you can’t work fast enough to do the things you have to learn to take college chem. That is why you do those multiplication tables back in grade school.
DG,
To Junkefers point, we all originated from the same place. Do you think all the different people have nothing genetically in common because they happen to inhabit different continents at the present time?
There are a lot of theories in relation to the beginning of the human race…..no one knows for sure……..
I’m just saying there is a reason for the separation of the races.
I can see there are a lot more issues on here than just charters good or bad! Not sure if it got cleared up by what I had said earlier, but yes the charters are still public even with limited enrollments. Anybody can be a part of that limited enrollment, that’s the public bit. Am not aware of any charters opening that had to do so with a lottery, but it’s the fair system used once a charter has reached its capacity for something like incoming 4th graders. You know, of course, that MN has open enrollment available between residents of district. Open enrollment can be closed once a school has reached capacity for a grade level. Sort of the same thing.
Economic/social makeup is reallllly all across the board. Like I said, the most charters are in the city, and proportionally on the north side of Mpls. You’ll also, however, find charters in teeny tiny greater MN towns. So I think it’s pretty useless to try to find a trend there. I will say that they do seem to attract at least as many special ed kids as do traditional districts, if that’s helpful.
“Then why did we invent boats?”
Capitalism. Or maybe the weather was nice and they needed a hobby so they thought sailing would be nice. I believe the first regatta team was called The Fire Starters. :)
Many people have different beliefs; it doesn’t make them bad or wrong as mark tries to suggest.
Erin,
Thanks for your participation in today’s blog. You have proven your knowledge on the subject and helped me expand my own. I’ve been absent from the discussion, working a little but also pouring over the statute you’ve been quoting. Thanks for providing it. Surprisingly easy to read.
You’ve helped me to be more amenable to the concept of charter schools. I guess I’ve always thought that traditional public schools have a monopoly of sorts and that a little competition in the allocation of public funds for education might actually help improve them. At the same time, I fear that if too many charter schools proliferate, our allocation of public education funds may become so diffuse that the needs of Minnesota’s children are not collectively met as well as they were when traditional schools had the monopoly. Economy of scale was at least on their side. Something to ponder. I do think that while you are completely correct in your assertion that charter schools are public schools (the law says so too), it may mislead some to think you mean charter schools are no different from traditional public schools. That would be like saying a trapezoid is a square because they are both quadrilaterals.
One thing you might consider,
When you say,
“Still dislike charters? Come on! It’s okay to like something that Kersten wrote, really. She’s praising a public school and deserves your commendation and not misinformed cheap shots.”
I apologize for my own misinformed cheap shot early today but consider the context. If you read Katherine’s blog regularly, I think you’ll notice a pattern of Katherine routinely snarkily poking at traditional public schools from K-12 all the way to the U of MN. She usually reserves praise for parochial schools. Then, when as you say she does praise a technically public school, it is one whose name evokes a geographical feature of Rome, dresses its female students in plaid skirts, and is sponsored by an entity called “Friends of Ascension”. Kind of made it easy for the cynical/skeptical reflex to kick in.
“it doesn’t make them bad or wrong as mark tries to suggest.”
Sure. I happen to think its okay to rob gas stations and Hitler thought it was a good idea to build a few forced labor camps. Keep that moral relativism stuff going DG. Its really working for you!
“I’m just saying there is a reason for the separation of the races.”
Such as?
There is some reason why the races were separated on different continents to begin with…
As others have already pointed out, the races weren’t “separated.” We all likely have a common African ancestor. I believe that the different races likely evolved through genetic mutations and adapting to different climates and environments as they migrated across the globe. But every member of the species homo sapiens — regardless of race – shares a vast majority of genetic code, something like 99.9% (or more). The differences between individual humans are miniscule compared to the similarities.
Erin - Nobody stays on topic very long here. Tangents abound.
diamondgrl - The evidence for continental drift is pretty solid since it’s still occurring today. NASA has a good explanation on its kids’ page. It doesn’t really matter how you believe humans came into existence - religious and secular scholars pretty much agree we all started in the same place. It varies between Africa and the Middle East, depending on who you’re talking to. But I guess either one would be kind of disturbing for some people.
Erin, I too thank you for participating. I think your view of charter schools may be a bit naive (theory vs. reality) but since I only have anecdotal info and no data, I can’t contest you on that.
Thanks Aaron, points well taken. It just seemed so knee-jerk a reaction, but maybe if your knee is used to jerking, then I’m not going to see it. I like KK’s columns, which I’m sure is going to irritate some but my position is hopefully irrelevant when it comes to just letting people know about what charters are. That’s all I was hoping to do and thanks for letting me know I got some of it across! And good on you for reading the statute. Very brave. And that’s a good point about economies of scale and how diluting resources can be a problem. Something to consider, and I wonder if there’s a balance in which there is enough competition to improve trad schools but so much $ drained away to hurt them overall.
FYI, Friends of Ascension sponsor a lot of schools that you’d not ever see a crucifix adorning, if that helps. (oh, and the state wouldn’t allow the crucifix anyway!) Sponsors get a pittance for all the work they do and really do lose money for every sponsorship they provide. (something like $25 per pupil at the sponsored school. That’s for a year) So as a result, we’d have a lot fewer charters if there weren’t *charitable* organizations to pick up that slack. Some universities do it, but it’s a money loser. The state won’t sponsor any anymore either.
Hope that helps!
Well Floyd, I’ll try not to wince as being characterized as naive! Sure, like I said there are problems and sometimes it’s due to the small size of the schools (hiring personnel is a real problem, esp when your school might be out of business next year), and sometimes because they’re a charter. Still, like most things it’s a work in progress and I’ll work with what we have. Did you know the first charter in the US has turned 10 years old successfully? It’s a MN school, so go them.
Am furiously reading up on continental drift so I can play along with that… kidding!
OK Erin…you’re not naive, I’m just cynical :)
newbiz,
A small point, but one very important to me. The continents were pretty much as we know them today, at least geologically speaking, when humans came along. The spread of humanity was accomplished under its own power.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification Junkefer. So building boats really is the answer. :)
FC writes, To the best of my memory, calculators didn’t appear even on the U of M campus till about 1964 or 1965. Everything I learned K-14 was memorized. I do use a calculator now, of course, but I have my reservations about them for K-12.
This about the time I was taking high school chemistry, with a college level textbook. The instructor spent the first week of class showing us how to use a slide rule…everyone had to have one.
I wonder how many of today’s engineers or science and math instructors know how to use one.
I, too, have reservations about the prevelance of calculators in K-12, especially in the lower grades. Until students have mastered, at a minimum, the addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division tables, calculators should not be permitted. And the same goes for the grammar/spell checkers that come as part of word processing programs. I wonder how many students could actually use a Webster’s.
We had dodgeball too, plus a fairly ferocious game called pullaway (or pom-pom-pullaway).
I had a sadistic Junior High Gym teacher who liked us to play a variation of dodgeball called “pingard”. Basically we were split between the two sides of the gym and each side had bowling pins lined up along the back of the room. The object was to either knock over all the other side’s pins or knock out all the other side’s players, a la dodgeball. He had us play it with volleyballs. I broke a finger playing this game one day, and he complemented me for not crying.
newbiz… I can see where some magnet programs are like that. At my school, which is an IB magnet in Minneapolis, we are not easy As… It was decided to be a magnet school to provide kids with a choice for a more challenging education. Besides cosmetology, I don’t think of many of the magnets as “trade schools.” The Education and Public Service magnet at Edison is a good way for kids to learn about public service and education prior to college. The arts magnet at South is a great program. But if kids get As it could be because they are being finally doing programs at which they excel.
“I wonder how many students could actually use a Webster’s.”
Or a library. The internet makes information available with a keystroke. But I think they lose some problem solving skills in the exchange.
bdaniel - True, those students may be more non-traditional and finally finding subjects that resonate with them. The magnets also may have evolved a bit since I was in high school. It’s been a while. :)
“Economic/social makeup is reallllly all across the board”
ErinMN,
thanks for the info. Is there a web site where a person may go to look up Charter schools in their area?
“Or a library.”
Newbz,
My daughter (7 yrs) loves the library and can find her way around very easily due to her school taking the kids through the old school way first (remember the index cards) then they walked them through the new computer look up system.
I hope all schools do this but am familier only with our district.
Or a library. The internet makes information available with a keystroke. But I think they lose some problem solving skills in the exchange.
I seriously doubt that a significant percentage of today’s high school students could use a library for research. (In grade school, we had to memorize the Dewey Decimal System.) As a high school sophomore (1963-1964), I had three term papers due the same day…Biology, American History, and English Literature. The papers had to be footnoted according to the “Chicago Manual of Style” and the lucky students had electric typewriters to use; the rest of us used manuals. Handwritten papers were not allowed. Have you ever tried to type a term paper with footnotes using a manual or electric typewriter? It isn’t easy!
“I hope all schools do this but am familier only with our district. ”
Libraries are important but I think the old index card system doesnt really hold any value other than sentimental. You wouldn’t teach your daughter how to use a rotary phone right? Some things (library index carsds) become obscelete for good reason.
blahx4, Very astute point. And as JonR points out, imagine using a typwriter for term papers.
Also, I believe very few libraries use the Dewey system anymore. Kinda hard to memorize Libary of Congress indexes.
Sorry I’m a luddite and don’t know how to give you a link, G.S.A.H.A., but this organization has a listing of all 143 schools if that helps. http://www.mncharterschools.org/page/directory.jsp Not all charters are members of the organization, but it’s at least all in one place for easy googling.
Sorry, indices
“Some things (library index carsds) become obscelete for good reason.”
this is Right.
But its a good learning tool to start from an old obsolete way of doing things to better understand the theories behind the fast way. Not necessarily the index cards.
Like drafting. they run ya (or used to) throuight the mechancal drafting on then to the computer drafting.
“But its a good learning tool to start from an old obsolete way of doing things…”
To a point. I think Friedman covers this well in his book ‘The World is Flat’. Technology is moving so fast and in turn so is productivity. If you get stuck in doing things the old way, someone else is doing it the new way, in a more productive manner and taking your marketshare. I dont want to spend my time going to the library to look up a book when I could go to the sources website and get the same infomration in a matter of seconds. The time I could’ve taken going to the library is wasted time I couldve spent being more productive. Unless the act of going to the library is pleasurable and the whole point. But in the business world, time is money. Id rather focus on learning to leverage technology than resent it.
Hmmm, apparently I can’t try to insert a link for you GSAHA, but go to the MN Association of Charter Schools for one comprehensive list I’m aware of. Not all schools are members, but they’re at least all listed and therefore googleable. Good luck!
“Unless the act of going to the library is pleasurable and the whole point.”
Its how I always remembered it as a kid.
I do understand your point on the real world. I was only talkin about a 7 year old. A few days of the old ways never hurt. But then onto the present and into the future is best for all to keep up.
Hi, all,
Many thanks for your info on how they do things in the schools nowadays. I can see that I’m definitely in the stone age: my main address book is still a drawer of 3×5 cards, and I have and use a manual typewriter. I do, however, have indoor plumbing. :-)
I find that it’s easier to change a 3×5 card than my e-mail address list, and easier for me to just roll an envelop into the typewriter than to turn on the machine and set up the printer. I think the clue is that if I seldom do something, or only once at a time, manual methods are more efficient. The computer really comes into its own for repetitive and bulk tasks, or for storing a paper or spreadsheet I’ve written, for later correction or further calculation.
When I graduated U of M in 1970, I had all my books on Dewey; then the Mpls system changed to L of C, so I did too. (L of C classification schedules are online.) Use it enough, one gets used to it, and it sort of soaks in.
I agree that it’s a good idea to show kids the old way of doing some things so they understand the principles.
erinMN,
you link will most likly post in a bit after KK checks it out for Q&A.
Thanks
Sorry for the delay in getting that link up ErinMN. Thanks for the reminder GSAHA.
Hey no worries—just assumed I did it wrong in my advanced cut and pastery skills. Is pastery a word, or does one eat it? At any rate, been nice chatting about charters.
And continental drift.
The Dewey Decimal system may be out of date, but I don’t think research should be. Sitting in front of a computer and typing a word in Google really isn’t research. It should involve problem solving skills - where to find certain types of data, how to determine a reliable source, etc. We may not do it that way in the ‘real world’, but I think it’s good to understand those things. It really is useful in some careers.
In some instances I think technology has become a burden. Instead of simply allowing technology to make us more productive, we’ve used it as an excuse to pile on more work. We may be turning out more units of work, but the quality hasn’t necessarily improved.
I don’t resent technology, but we may be getting to a point where we rely on it too much. I’ve been in situations where places close when their computer goes down because sales can’t be tabulated in the company computer. Staff can figure out checks and payments, but it’s not automatically entered into the system back at HQ and they’re not allowed to have paper records. Things like that tell me it might be getting out of hand in some ways.
I don’t resent technology, but we may be getting to a point where we rely on it too much.
I agree. I remember reading a short story in 9th grade, but I can’t remember the title…darn. The story revolved around a man living in the future who had developed a terrible, new, doomsday weapon.
The weapon? The ability to do mathematical calculations with paper and pencil, rather than using a computer.
I’ve been in situations where places close when their computer goes down because sales can’t be tabulated in the company computer.
This happened to me once in the late 1970’s at the Byerly’s store in Golden Valley. It was the day before Thanksgiving and the store was jammed. The computers crashed and not one customer could pay for their groceries.
Hey G.S.A.H.A.
Hey baby save those in case I come visit sometime !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“The computers crashed and not one customer could pay for their groceries.”
Yea. And don’t think you’ll get by carrying cash.
Sorry Sir. The registers won’t open.
Tiny,
I’ll need to hide em rael good from the “Teenager”. Seems to be the hot Item at school today.
“I don’t resent technology, but we may be getting to a point where we rely on it too much.”
What do you think Ted was trying to tell us? Read the manifesto….
Tiny,
You have a good memory when it comes to projects made in school. Welsh rabbit?
My class made cookies, brownies, and I’ll never forget, Lemon Maraigne(spelling?) Pie. Strictly medicinal to cure the munchies.
Hi, all,
The fun of just browsing in library shelves or stacks is one of the most underrated pleasures of modern life.
Welsh rabbit?
I think I had to take either Metal Shop or Foods. I wanted to explore my feminine side, plus all the girls took foods.
When I graduated I probably owed a lunch ticket to every chick in my class. And the ones that didn’t catch on….more then one.
Any thoughts and the school levys we will be voting on tomorrow? Do they just show out of control spending or do schools really need the money to get by?
Do they just show out of control spending or do schools really need the money to get by?
If you believe any school district is wasting money, then sit down with the school board and show the board where in the budget money is being wasted.
I sure they would be very receptive to that JonR.
Isnt it lovely what our peaceful neighbors think of us amongst themselves
//muslim-wife.blogspot.com
/2007/10/whats-so-good-about-fasting.html
What’s So Good About Fasting?
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Kaffir: Oooh, you’re fasting?
Me: yup
Kaffir: No food?! No Drink?!
Me: nope
Kaffir: Not even water? Oh my gosh…I’m so sorry!
Me: Uh….I’m not.
Yup, I’m not sorry at all, alhamdulillah.
posted by Muslim Wife @ 12:29 PM | Permalink
8 Comments:
At Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:07:00 PM, MuniQaba said…
as salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu,
MashaAllah wa jazaki Allah khair for posting this great reminder on the benefits of why it is so important and so beneficial to fast. I absolutely love reading the hadith that you posted about the gate ar-Raiyan. I learned this hadith last year mashaAllah, and as a result it led me to increase in voluntary fasts alhamdulliah. I wanna be one of the people who is allowed entry, by the Mercy of Allah, through this gate b’ithnillah. Takabullah minna wa minkum…ameen.
At Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:54:00 AM, zainab said…
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,
Alhamdulillah…May Allah,azza wa jal, make us of those who worship Him with sincerity,out of fear,love and hope seeking the Pleasure of our Rabb..Ameen.
At Friday, October 05, 2007 3:30:00 PM, Baraka said…
As salaamu ‘alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu and may these last precious few days of Ramadan be filled with blessings for you & yours!
Warmly,
Baraka
rickshawdiaries.wordpress.com
At Friday, October 05, 2007 6:48:00 PM, Anonymous said…
You live in Florida in the United States and you use the word “kaffir” to refer to the people who live next door to you? I’m not trying to be rude but I’m just curious as to why you would do that…
At Monday, October 08, 2007 5:28:00 PM, abdullah said…
The kaffir (kuffur) are the enemies of islam. They are less than human unless they revert to the one true way. It is acceptable to be rude to them - regardless of where you live, for they are less than us.
At Monday, October 08, 2007 6:50:00 PM, Muslim Wife said…
Muniqaba: I pray we are amongst those who are called through this Gate of Jannah, ameen!
Zainab & Baraka: ameen! Hope y’all are having a great Ramadan and taking advantage of these last few days!
Anonymous: Did I do something wrong by calling a kaffir a kaffir? Anyways, Abdullah explained it well,masha’Allah, but I’ll put it to ya like this…if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck….
At Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:43:00 AM, Anonymous said…
I’m hungry.
At Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:52:00 PM, caravanofmartyrs said…
assalamu alaykumukhtee,
long time no talk, how have u been.
hope ur ramadan is going well.
just wanted to inform you that the site has now moved to:
These two sentences say it all:
The kaffir (kuffur) are the enemies of islam. They are less than human unless they revert to the one true way.
The West (and other non-Muslims) will not lose their “enemy of Islam” status by changing foreign policy, by sacrificing Israel, by giving more aid to Islamic nations, on and on.
Submission to Islam is the only drink that will quench the thirst.
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Katherine Kersten writes a weekly column for the Star Tribune's Sunday Opinion Exchange section. The column covers a broad range of topics reflecting her experiences and interests.
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