Turning the Boy Scouts into Pariahs
August 10th, 2007 – 8:41 AMI wrote this column in October 2000, when the campaign to discredit the Boy Scouts was in full swing. Have things changed today?
What’s the most pressing problem in America today? There’s a growing consensus that it’s an inability to socialize our young men. Today, millions of boys are growing up without a father at home. Those who do have fathers inhabit a popular culture where the rap singer Eminem defines masculinity. Dominated by a youth culture that celebrates vulgarity and pleasure-seeking self-absorption, our society lacks a constructive vision of what it means to be a man.
One organization is doing more than any other to rescue our young men from this predicament: the Boy Scouts. For 90 years, the Scouts have worked tirelessly to build character in boys and to provide the guidance of responsible older men on the rocky road to manhood. The Scouts teach virtues in short supply today: honesty, industry, self-discipline, generosity, perseverance and respect for others. Turning his back on the popular culture, a Scout vows to be “physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight,” and pledges to “do my duty to God and my country.”
At a time when many young people revel in alienation, the Scouts strive to make service a way of life. (Remember “Do a good turn daily”?) They put in untold hours of community service, painting bus shelters, visiting senior citizen centers and shoveling snow for shut-in neighbors. For these reasons, participation in Scouts is at the highest point in decades - 5 million boys - as concerned parents reach for the help of experts, and a company of like-minded peers, in rearing their sons.
If the Scouts’ work is important in the suburbs, it is vital in inner-city neighborhoods, where strong, honorable male models are often rare to nonexistent. The Scouts’ founder, Lord Baden-Powell, created the organization to help poor and immigrant boys build character; here in America, the Scouts have heavily recruited inner-city boys since the 1960s.
Ask inner-city mothers about the Boy Scouts. You’ll find that the scoutmaster is often a surrogate father, sometimes the only stable adult in a child’s life. Mothers will tell you that he helps them with discipline, gives parenting advice, and may even be the school’s contact when a boy is truant. To inner-city boys who crave order and authority, scouting provides structure and meaning, and helps keep gangs at bay.
Recently, writer Heather MacDonald interviewed urban Scout troops for an article in City Journal. Former Harlem Scout Frederick Simmons told her that when he was boy, he slept with his merit-badge sash wrapped around him. “Every one of those badges represents an achievement,” he explained. “No one gave them to you.” Twelve-year-old Scout Dayshon Green confided, “When I see my neighbors carrying bags, I’m supposed to help them automatically.”
Despite scouting’s extraordinary record, several Minnesota organizations have recently shown themselves prepared to toss the Scouts’ 90 years of service in the trash can. Medtronic, Breck School, the Star Tribune and the United Way of Greater Duluth have washed their hands of the Boy Scouts; they are prepared to let scouting die on the vine.
Why? Because the Scouts wish to continue what they’ve always done, and what the Supreme Court just reaffirmed they have a right, as a private association, to do. They want to choose their own scout leaders, selecting the men they believe are best prepared to carry out their oath and law. The Scouts do not want avowed homosexuals as leaders, because they do not believe - in the respect of sexual behavior - that homosexuals can serve as models for boys and teens to emulate.
Medtronic and the Star Tribune disagree, and will no longer finance the Scouts through the United Way. Who will suffer? Well, it won’t be the Scouts in Minnetonka. Suburban troops tend to be self-supporting, financing their activities by selling popcorn and Christmas wreaths. Parents dash off checks for uniforms and equipment, and chauffeur boys to camp in minivans.
Inner-city scouts, however, depend on charitable donations, as they struggle to rise above the mean streets of the ghetto and barrio. What will corporate defunding mean for them? Corporate contributions pay for uniforms, handbooks and field trips, though - in keeping with the Scouts’ self-help ethic - boys must make progress toward ranks to earn them. Corporate dollars pay for camp scholarships and volunteer training, and underwrite stipends for scoutmasters when responsible volunteers can’t be found.
What of Breck School? Its decision to deny meeting space to its Cub Scout pack won’t seriously inconvenience its affluent young students. Things look quite different, however, in Oakland or Detroit, where a school is often the only refuge for Scouts in a blighted neighborhood.
Medtronic, Breck and organizations like them appear willing to sacrifice the well-being of inner-city youngsters in the name of tolerance. They claim they are shunning the Boy Scouts because support is not consistent with their values of “diversity” and “inclusiveness.” This is a strange view of tolerance, and of diversity as well. After all, tolerance means not demanding that others share your beliefs; it means refraining from condemning or ostracizing those who have different views.
The Boy Scouts expect certain things of their own leaders, but they embrace a “live and let live” philosophy. The Scouts don’t want to dictate to other organizations, they just want to continue quietly helping kids in a way that is consistent with their core beliefs. In contrast, activists spearheading the campaign against the Scouts want to put them out of business. They are agents of the new intolerance, which uses the language of diversity to enforce a stifling conformity.
For many years, the United Way has exemplified real diversity, funding organizations from local Councils of Churches to the United Jewish Appeal. It has supported the good work of a host of private organizations, without putting them into a moral or sectarian straitjacket. Thus, the United Way has funded the Boy Scouts, though the organization excludes atheists as leaders. (The Scouts, though nonsectarian, stress the importance of spiritual life.) Likewise, the United Way has funded Catholic Charities, though the Catholic Church, its sponsoring organization, does not ordain women.
Today, we are witnessing a concerted attempt to make the Boy Scouts new pariahs, untouchables in the philanthropic community. Fortunately, most of corporate America is not biting, including giants like AT&T, General Electric and Chase Manhattan. Merrill Lynch, a proponent of true diversity, put it best: “We do not believe the role of our philanthropy is to reconcile all conflicting views.”
361 Responses to "Turning the Boy Scouts into Pariahs"
Of course the Boy Scouts perform good works, and the organization has been an asset to tens of millions of boys. But I note that you recognize that the Boy Scouts is a private organization, free to exclude men from leadership positions and boys from its ranks who do not share the organization’s philosophies about sexual orientation and religion.
So why do you have a problem when other organizations choose not to support the Scouts? Do these organizations also not have the right to affirm their own values and support organizations that more closely espouse them? You obviously agree that the Scouts have the right so discriminate against gay men and atheists, but bemoan other private organizations that in turn exercise their right to discriminate against the Scouts!
They claim they are shunning the Boy Scouts because support is not consistent with their values of “diversity” and “inclusiveness.” This is a strange view of tolerance, and of diversity as well. After all, tolerance means not demanding that others share your beliefs; it means refraining from condemning or ostracizing those who have different views.
Including gay men and atheists? Apparently it’s OK not to tolerate them. The Scouts have condemned and ostracized gay men and atheists; they should expect repercussions for such a decision.
The Boy Scouts expect certain things of their own leaders, but they embrace a “live and let live” philosophy.
Again, not when it comes to gay men and atheists.
The Scouts don’t want to dictate to other organizations…
No, they just want to dictate certain beliefs to their members and leaders.
The Scouts do not want avowed homosexuals as leaders, because they do not believe - in the respect of sexual behavior - that homosexuals can serve as models for boys and teens to emulate.
And they have a right to this belief. I would point out, however, that gay boys need good role models, too, and that gay men should be among those role models. Gay men can also serve as role models to straight boys, despite what the Scouts say.
I support the right of the Boy Scouts, as a private organization, to discriminate as it sees fit. I also support the right of people and organizations who disagree with the Scout’s decisions not to support them. I am saddened that the Boy Scouts have chosen to deny gay and atheist boys the same experience they offer all other boys, and to deny to all of their boys some of the excellent role models found within the gay community. Until they are willing to include gay and atheist boys in their ranks, and gay men within their leadership, they won’t receive a dime of this gay atheist’s money.
Well said, EBF.
I was a Boy Scout, and while I loved the skills it taught me concerning camping, I found the organization a bad fit, especially as I learned to express my ideas that were contrary to the Boy Scout’s beliefs. Having a gay brother, I was disgusted by his treatment by our troop. The BSA didn’t work for me.
Yet I support the right of the Boy Scouts to discriminate. They are a private institution. And I support the right of private organizations such as Breck, Medtronic, and the like to deny Boy Scouts access and money. Private groups should be able to discriminate in choosing their members and leaders.
What I will not stand for is publicly owned places (such as public schools and libraries) being allowed as meeting spaces for these private, discriminatory groups, especially free use of the space. So long as their group violates our state’s human rights law, they shouldn’t be allowed free access to our state-funded spaces.
As a teacher who works with “inner-city” boys, I don’t think the Boy Scouts are the only character-building organization from which these young men can learn and grow. The YMCA, for instance, offers many excellent programs for young men (and women) without the discrimination of the scouts. And I am sure there are many other organizations that can do the job.
I wonder what KK’s reaction would be if a private organization such as the Jaycees excluded blacks or Jews.
bdaniel367,
The other day you were looking for literature or other resources that would provide resources for you gay students. Did you see the response I posted?
No, I didn’t. I have limited access to a computer due to a broken leg. Not so fun.
On which day did you post? And thanks! :)
“Despite scouting’s extraordinary record, several Minnesota organizations have recently shown themselves prepared to toss the Scouts’ 90 years of service in the trash can. Medtronic, Breck School, the Star Tribune and the United Way of Greater Duluth have washed their hands of the Boy Scouts; they are prepared to let scouting die on the vine.”
Pure hypocracy. Let me get this straight, you condone the Boy Scouts right to descriminate, but dont support organizations rights to distance themselves from a group they disaprove of?
” After all, tolerance means not demanding that others share your beliefs; it means refraining from condemning or ostracizing those who have different views.”
Boy is this total BS. Why not hold the boy scouts to the same standard you hold these others to? Oh I know, because the Boy Scouts dont like Homosexuals. Kk you dont care about tolerance, you only care that a school like Breck doesnt share your anti gay agenda.
“The Boy Scouts expect certain things of their own leaders, but they embrace a “live and let live” philosophy.”
Ummmmm….. No.
KKs calls for diversity are a joke. How can you with a straight face rip Breck for deciding not to allow the Boy Scouts into their school and then defend the Scouts for not allowing gay people in their organization? Talk about moral reletavism. Cant you see they are both doing the same thing? I guess Breck as a liberal PRIVATE school doesnt deserve the same rights the Boy Scouts do. Why not defend their rights in your column?
“For many years, the United Way has exemplified real diversity, funding organizations from local Councils of Churches to the United Jewish Appeal. It has supported the good work of a host of private organizations, without putting them into a moral or sectarian straitjacket. Thus, the United Way has funded the Boy Scouts, though the organization excludes atheists as leaders. (The Scouts, though nonsectarian, stress the importance of spiritual life.) Likewise, the United Way has funded Catholic Charities, though the Catholic Church, its sponsoring organization, does not ordain women.”
How is this diverse? Catholic juxtaposed against Jewish is diverse? Diversity would be funding the Boy Scouts while at the same time giving money to an atheist or gay charity. Again, KK only wants diversity for efforts she agrees with. KK you are a hypocrite. How do you sleep at night writing such one sided material while claiming you value diversity? If you want to be the flag barer of anti gay, pro christian causes, go ahead. But stop acting like you care about diversity, its making me sick to my stomach.
“This is a strange view of tolerance, and of diversity as well.”
Maybe Breck should invite Fred Phelps to their Chapel service to make up for their Boy Scout screw up?
bdaniel,
I hope you see this today; this is what I posted in response to your request:
“I have two suggestions for you. The first is John Drury’s “Advise and Consent,” published in 1959, which won a Pulitzer. The plot involves a man who is nominated to be Secretary of State. When his opponents threaten to reveal a homosexual episode in his past, the man commits suicide. The 1972 movie version is also excellent.
The second is the made-for-TV movie “That Certain Summer,” which is available on video. The lead roles were played by Martin Sheen and Hal Holbrook. There is no book. ABC commissioned the movie in 1972 and it was considered quite daring in its time.”
The interesting thing about Heather MacDonald in this context is that she is an atheist.
Here is the link to her article.
This subject brings to mind some of the persons in my life who could not be — or could not have been — Boy Scouts or BS Leaders.
My older brother, for all practical purposes, an atheist. Gay. Army NCO. Killed in combat in Vietnam.
My first husband, non-believer. Army officer. Killed in combat in Vietnam.
My current husband’s younger brother, non-believer. Army NCO. Killed in combat in Vietnam.
My current husband, agnostic, bordering on atheist. Former Army NCO and Green Beret, seriously wounded during his second voluntary combat tour in Vietnam. Spends two months of every year as a volunteer engineer and Jack of all Trades on an Indian reservation in the Southwest. Mentors several young Native children most of the rest of the year, to include providing horses and equipment for those who wish to learn to ride. Co-founder of, and major contributor to, a private shelter that provides room, board, counseling and job training/placement for about 20 abused women and their children.
My son, agnostic. Lieutenant Colonel, Army. Now commander of an Infantry Battalion. Three combat tours in Iraq, one of which was during Desert Storm.
A young NCO whom my husband calls the bravest and most selfless man he has ever known and who was killed while dragging my husband to safety during a firefight in Vietnam. Gay.
All of the above were leaders of boys who became men in combat, but were/are ineligible to be leaders of Boy Scouts. Men who were willing to put all on the line in the service of their country, but not good enough to be or lead Boy Scouts.
Come to think of it, they were all probably too good for an organization such as the Boy Scouts.
As an aside, some of the finest, most upstanding and wonderful people in my life have been atheists or gays. Or both. And some of the absolutely worst persons I have ever known in my life have been straights purporting to be Christians.
– Susan
Susan,
The tragedies your family suffered during the Vietnam War are truly astonishing. My condolences to your family.
Hi, all,
My condolences also to Susan; other than that, I have nothing to say except have a nice weekend.
JonR, thanks for the suggestions. I’ll check them out. :)
Susan, your post is the first to ever give me chills and also to inspire me to actually contribute in the months I’ve been reading this blog. I could never state my feelings on this topic as eloquently as you have. It saddens me that people close themselves off to experiences with other people due to their differences, but especially for an organization such as the boy scouts to completely dismiss the importance of providing ALL boys-including homosexual or bi-with leaders and mentors that can guide them in becoming accepting and non-judging adults they are really doing a disservice to the entire community. No, I do not believe that companies who choose to still contribute should be demonized, but neither should those that have chosen to withdraw aid.
And here I go getting riled up over an issue that’s almost 7 years old. Depressing that so much time has passed and we are no closer-in fact much farther from-to spreading the idea of acceptance, is it not?
I would never allow my teenage daughter to go on a camping trip supervised by men, and I also wouldn’t allow my son to be supervised by a person who is aroused sexually by males. This is a no brainer and I really don’t understand the whining about the Scouts from liberals.
As far as the United Way stopping their contributions to the Scouts, I figured out that they were a left wing organization years ago and stopped my donations to them.
Jose Carranza, 28, pleaded not guilty to the charges against him, which include the attempted murder of a fourth student and robbery
Carranza was indicted by grand juries in New Jersey twice this year — in April on aggravated assault and weapons charges; and in July on 31 counts which included aggravated sexual assault of a child under 13 years old and endangering the welfare of a child he had a duty to supervise.
Dow would not answer questions about how Carranza was released on bail on previous charges this year, despite his immigration status. But a cousin of one victim questioned why that happened. (I know what happen, some moron thought Mr. Carranza was just here looking for a better life)
Another “immigrant” just here for a better life” or was it “doing jobs Americans wont do”
Mark a : You would let your young son be in a scout group with a gay Scout Master. Oh that’s right you don’t have any kids…so if you don’t have any kids that might be in Scouts then maybe you should S.T.F.U…
Your one sick individual.
I guess a “lifestyle” of filth and slim and one that has brought us an incurable disease that has killed millions across the globe should be celebrated.
That’s about as twisted as I think man can get.
“This is a no brainer and I really don’t understand the whining about the Scouts from liberals.”
This isnt going to mean anything to you but being gay doesnt make you a pedophile. Would you let your son go on a camping trip supervised by a female? Seems to me Im hearing alot about female teachers abusing their male students? Is it your opinion that gay men are all pedophiles?
I would never allow my teenage daughter to go on a camping trip supervised by men, and I also wouldn’t allow my son to be supervised by a person who is aroused sexually by males.
Am I to conclude that, in your sick little world, all men are pedophiles? Did you even read Susan Cinaz’s post? It left me stunned. d2si, you’re a disgrace.
I guess a “lifestyle” of filth and slim and one that has brought us an incurable disease that has killed millions across the globe should be celebrated.
Yes, brimn, you’re absolutely correct. Gonorrhea and syphilis — spread primarily by heterosexual sex — have indeed killed millions around the world.
“This isnt going to mean anything to you but being gay doesnt make you a pedophile.”
DOESNT MEAN HE ISNT PEDOPHILE EITHER !!!!!!!!
You just hate the Boy Scouts, because it represents all thats good in America, God, country and tradition familys. And you just hate that.
EBF,
Did you see K. Rove is resigning? Is it possible the head has been cut off the snake?
Yes, brimn, you’re absolutely correct. Gonorrhea and syphilis — spread primarily by heterosexual sex — have indeed killed millions around the world.
I don’t thing the numbers are comparable at all there “dillweed”. Of course you wouldn’t have an objective opinion on it this since your “Playing for the other team”
Instead of being a smart guy you should have a little shame that “your kind” and your sexual perversions has contributed to deaths of millions of people.
EBF,
Ignore it.
Did you see K. Rove is resigning?
YES!!! Oh, happy day!!!
Is it possible the head has been cut off the snake?
Rove was referred to as “Bush’s brain.” But I also saw a story recently that a rattlesnake head, after being detached from its body, nonetheless bit someone. I’d name that snake “Karl Rove” in a heartbeat!
Did you see the documentary “Bush’s Brain”. I myself never did. I wonder what his motivations are? Could it be that we are moving full swing into election time and he isnt needed or no one running on the GOP side wants him? Maybe he doesnt want to work for any of them?
EBF,
Ignore it.
Sorry, not this time. Some days you just have to feed the trolls.
Instead of being a smart guy you should have a little shame that “your kind” and your sexual perversions has contributed to deaths of millions of people.
So, I’m supposed to be stupid now – perhaps like you – because of AIDS? I have no shame because I’m a responsible person. My sex life has endangered or killed no one. My husband and I – both HIV-negative, by the way – are monogamous. We are not responsible for spreading any disease. Most sexually transmitted diseases are spread through promiscuity, and the GLBT community certainly has no corner on that market, brimn.
If I am supposed to take responsibility for “my kind” and my “sexual perversions” contributing to deaths of millions of people, then you – and all straight people – have an equal obligation to take the same responsibility for your community.
You know, you sure seem to have a bug up your butt about GLBT people. I think you may be a closet case!
brimn, perhaps you should take your own advice; when you know not of which you speak, S.T.F.U.
Did you see the documentary “Bush’s Brain”.
That must have been one short documentary….:)
I wonder what his motivations are? Could it be that we are moving full swing into election time and he isnt needed or no one running on the GOP side wants him? Maybe he doesnt want to work for any of them?
When I first saw the headline, I thought Rove would be moving back into battle mode for Republican candidates. But when I read the article, it said he wants to write books! Maybe the Republicans have finally realized it’s in their best interest to avoid Rove — and anything else related to Bush.
So when I become a Scout leader I should openly announce “Hey I’m heterosexual and bang my wife long and hard like a Caveman every night” NO it’s my business.
So how long are you going to have to put up with this “I’m gay look at me” BS. If your gay, so what. Just keep it to yourself like the rest of society keeps there sexual practice to themselves.
Our does wearing that “I’m Gay” badge suppose to signify to us that you’re a “special person” and society should treat you different then anybody else
You go ahead and ignore Mr. Mark a, that’s nothing new to you. You’ve been ignoring reason and common sense for all time. That’s why your mind is nothing more then a bunch of mushy BS.
Evil Baby Fauvel : “Thanks Mark a, I love you.”
Mark a : “I love you to dog.”
Evil Baby Fauvel : “Should we get a room after the blog”
I cannot completely disagree with what dare2sayit says. example: If I was a parent of a young male I would not be comfortable if his PE teacher was a female and allowed in the locker room/shower area around the naked young males. I would also not be comfortable if the teacher was gay and allowed in the locker room/shower area around naked young men, pedophile has nothing to do with it. Surely you can understand this?
Avg Guy,
Your example carries water. I can understand it. Dare2’s example omits the cases of females as predators though. My feeling is you are in no more danger around gay men than you are around any other authority figure. Putting all the scrutiny on gay men and none on other groups proven to be predators is missing something. People have a stereotype that gay men are all pedophiles. How many female teachers have to abuse their students before that idea is prooven false?
EBF,
Does it bother you to hear heterosexual people say keep your sexuality to yourself? I see lots of pictures of spouses on my co workers desks. I hear co workers on the phone with significant others talking about plans and saying I love you etc. I see heterosexuals in the streets kissing and hugging all the time. But when a gay couple does that its ,” Keep it to yourself” That would drive me insane if I was gay.
mark a, I would not like the scenario either where my young daughter’s male PE teacher or lesbian PE teacher was allowed into the shower area either. Nothing against any personal group, I think you are just asking for trouble.
mark a, here’s another example. I know I’m not a pedaphile, and you probably are not either. Do you think mothers would want us hanging around their naked 15 year old daughters?
Avg guy,
Like I said, I can understand your feelings. I wouldnt want male teachers in the locker room with my daughter either. There is some room for give and take there. My problem isnt with the scenarios you are describing and I dont think youre homophobic for feeling that way either. My problem is with the feelings some people here have that all gay men are pedophiles and cant be trusted. That somehow they are deviants. I have gay family members and friends and I know for a fact thats a false stereotype. Its usually one held by people who know zero gay people. You wouldnt allow straight men in girls locker rooms or strait females in male locker rooms. I can understand the idea that gay men shouldnt be allowed in male locker rooms either.
regarding the executions in Newark, New Jersy and the rape and murder of a 15 year old girl in Portland, Oregon by Illegle immigrants.
Once again an illegal immigrant has taken the life of an innocent American citizen.
An illegal immigrant that has been in police custody a number of times. An illegal
immigrant that was not once asked his immigration status so as not to offend him.
We have police officers that are instructed not to ask about someone’s immigration
status. We have police officers that are instructed to not cooperate with federal
authorities to enforce immigration laws. We have police officers and other government
employees that are instructed to block federal authorities from searching work places
for immigration law violators. We have mayors and a governor, elected officials
sworn to uphold the law, setting up safe houses for illegal immigrants and instructing
other public officials to not cooperate with federal authorities on illegal immigration
issues and laws.
What right do they have to put our children in danger? What right do they have not
to enforce the laws they were sworn to uphold?
It is now time to hold these scoundrels accountable. They should be charged with
criminal negligence and dereliction of duty. They need to be charged to the full
extent of the law. They need to be removed from their positions of authority.
I for one have had enough. That’s it. This has gone on long enough. Enforce the
goddamn laws or get the hell out so someone else can. You are doing a disservice
to our state and our country.
And to those who say they are looking for a better life, God have mercy on you If it happens to your child.
Rove might be leaving the Bush administration, but you can bet he will be orchestrating a Swift Boat smear campaign against the Democratic presidental nominee once the name is announced.
minn_dakota & Average_Guy : Keepers of common sense.
Mark a Fruitcake
“An illegal
immigrant that was not once asked his immigration status so as not to offend him.”
They do this so that they can be sure that illegals will report crime when they see it and not be affraid to report crime. Im not sying its right or wrong only that it has nothing to do with offending said illegal immigrant
Does it bother you to hear heterosexual people say keep your sexuality to yourself? I see lots of pictures of spouses on my co workers desks. I hear co workers on the phone with significant others talking about plans and saying I love you etc. I see heterosexuals in the streets kissing and hugging all the time. But when a gay couple does that its ,” Keep it to yourself” That would drive me insane if I was gay.
You read my mind, mark a. I was just going to make these very points.
As far as locker rooms and showers, please people, get over yourselves. Should gay men have their own separate locker and shower facilities? Lesbians too? What about bisexuals? Would we need four sets of facilities everywhere? Good grief! Since when is changing clothes and showering a sexual experience? I often bike to work. I use our fitness center’s locker and shower facilities every day I bike. I see naked men; they see me naked. And nobody cares – even the other guys who know I’m gay! No one is seeing anything they haven’t seen before, and certainly no one is having sex. There is only one other locker room here at work – the women’s. I certainly shouldn’t be in there.
All of you straight men who are so worried about gay men seeing you naked – why do you care? Are you ashamed of your body? Is something wrong with it? If you don’t have a problem parading around on a beach in a Speedo, why is it such a big deal if a gay guy sees you naked in a men’s locker room? Believe me, most of you aren’t anything great to look at. So unless you’re some kind of Adonis, in which case everyone of both genders is looking at you anyway, spare me the locker room BS.
I can understand the idea that gay men shouldnt be allowed in male locker rooms either.
Then which locker room should we use?
Mark a,
They don’t report crimes unless it is against one of thier own and it is commited by an american citizen. I don’t give a crap If they are scared to go to the police. they should be. they are braeking the law. they are here illegally. I don’t give a stiff poop about them wanting a better life when they drag down or liberties into the gutter.
I the goddamn liberals would quit thinking qith their bleeding hearts then they will see that this is bull. Democrats want the cheap vote and republicans want the corporation chep labor. the rest of us want our kids safe.
EBF,
I can understand what you are saying about the locker room issue too. Im not convinced on the issue either way yet. If there are seperate locker rooms between men and women isnt it mostly do to sexual reasons and either gender being uncomfortable? If that is the real reason to seperate the sexes, then dont straight men or women have an argument? If it isnt for biological reasons, I can see their point. I myself am not concerned about a gay man seeing me naked, but I can understand why others may want a seperate locker room. Does wanting to keep men or women out of the others locker rooms make you sexist?
“Then which locker room should we use?”
EBF,
That answer was more empathy than sympathy. I dont think a straight person wanting to be seperate from gay men or women in a locker room is any more about prejudice than them wanting the opposite sex to be seperated. Am I worng? whats the difference between the two scenarios?
Minn Dakota,
What if the only eye whitness to the murder or rape is another illegal? Wouldnt you want their testimony? What if there was a crack house in the nieghborhood and you needed an illegal to testify?
I understand you’re upset but why do you need to rip liberals so much and not Republicans which you obviously see as part of the problem?
Then our young scouts, (you know little boys) can be exposed to this wonderful lifestyle in a positive light. Then they can way the options for themselves.
‘Mom, Pete our gay scout master is so cool. I think I want to be just like him when I grownup”
Wonderful!!!!!
That’s the kind of thinking that is Morbid, Crude and despicable.
PS The gay guys down the block who don’t announce it by having a neon light flashing in their front yard or the gay guy at work who doesn’t wear the badge, I’m fine with. Its when you starting glorifying it or masquerade gays as “special people”. thats where I have a problem.
Marka : Minn Dakota,
What if the only eye whitness to the murder or rape is another illegal? Wouldnt you want their testimony? What if there was a crack house in the nieghborhood and you needed an illegal to testify?
God you’re a f&^%k’in moron…honest to god, what the f^&% is your problem.
As a mental health professional I am trained to recognize the warning signs of mental illness. A particular person on this blog whose posts are consistently belligerent, paranoid and frequently bigoted exhibits all of the signs of a borderline personality. If that person can see through the fog of his/her own delusions of grandeur and sad outbursts of petulant verbal abuse, I would strongly recommend they seek counseling asap to deal with their deep insecurities and aggression.
I have nothing but pity for this individual and contempt for their belligerence and ignorance.
Minn Dakota,
What if the only eye whitness to the murder or rape is another illegal who had one eye? Wouldnt you want their testimony? What if there was a crack house in the nieghborhood and the moon was full and you needed an illegal to testify?
I understand you’re upset but why do you need to rip Conservatives so much and not Democrates which you obviously see as part of the problem?
Because of centuries of discrimination and hatred I think it’s only fair that our current crop of gays get a free shot at our little boys.
“…Mom, Pete our gay scout master is so cool. I think I want to be just like him when I grownup…”
If that young man wants to be a scout master someday, good for him. However, no one “chooses” to be gay.
Caucasian straight males need to be punished for the sins of the past and what better way then by showing their young sons the bliss of being gay.
I won’t be happy until New Alum is 100 % Hispanic, that will show those Germans what it feels like too have their land stolen from them. Just like they took the land from the Indians.
I wonder who Mark B could be? I just cant figure it out.
RighteousIndignation,
Is assuming a different personality one of those traits as well?
As if there was not sufficient evidence for mental illness before…now one can add obsessive behavior and multiple personality disorder to the list. Pathetic. There are a host of counseling and pharmacological remedies that can assist this person. I sincerely hope that they push away from the computer and seek them out before they sink ever deeper into their psychosis.
Im not sure if I should be flatered or fear for my life. Not only has the troll assumed a second presonality, he’s trying to become my alter ego. Wow.
If that young man wants to be a scout master someday, good for him. However, no one “chooses” to be gay.
BS
That’s a wonderful defense mechanism and great excuses to use. Makes it easier to continue with the behavior. No different then a alcoholic who continues to drink, because thats what he is, an alcoholic.
Don’t flatter yourself there Fruitcake boy. ( man you really are a self-centered liberal creep )
Maybe it’s a Mark whose mind isn’t all full of BS. Maybe its Mark Benson. He does sound as Fruity as you I must say… He must be way——-way out there.
mark a, it would be almost amusing if the individual did not also exhibit such a propensity for belligerence which borders on threatening. Sadly, the attention paid by myself and others only exacerbates the subjects’ warped and inflated sense of self. The anonymity of the blog provides an outlet for their deep seated self-loathing and paranoia. It takes far more courage to seek assistance from a mental health professional and attempt to deal with one’s neuroses than it does to act out on a blog in a similar fashion to pre-school children who do not have the developed skills to handle their frustration and emotions.
Mark a
“What if the only eye whitness to the murder or rape is another illegal? Wouldnt you want their testimony? What if there was a crack house in the nieghborhood and you needed an illegal to testify?”
the only eyewitnesses to the Newark and Portland crimes were Illegale Immigrants that did not come forward because they commited the crimes themselves and we still caught them.
“I understand you’re upset but why do you need to rip liberals so much and not Republicans which you obviously see as part of the problem”
I’ll rip em as I see em.
The republican Party has been overrun by Carbpet beggers, robber barons, snake oil salesmen and Neo-compoops.
The last election was a well needed correction to the direction of the republican party. but now we’re stuck with the democrate party claiming a mandate. The only mandate that was set is that the people are sick and tired of the wreck in washington. Work to gether for the common good of the country not your saorry ass individual parties.
The republicans wanted the cheap labor for thier corporate cronies. Drive down wages and break the unions. The democrates want the cheap vote to fill their coffers and unions.
Niether has the countries best interest in mind.
RighteousIndignation,
It is interesting to observe the paranoia manifest itself on this blog. What would you suggest as a prudent course of action going forward?
comic releif- the north VS the south
North has Cream of Wheat, The South has grits.
The North has green salads, The South has collard greens.
The North has lobsters, The South has crawfish.
The North has the rust belt, The South has the Bible Belt.
FOR NORTHERNERS MOVING SOUTH . . . In the South: –If you run your car into a ditch, don’t panic. Four men in a four-wheel drive pickup truck with a tow chain will be along shortly. Don’t try to help them, just stay out of their way. This is what they live for.
Don’t be surprised to find movie rentals and bait in the same store…do not buy food at this store.
Remember, “y’all” is singular, “all y’all” is plural, and “all y’all’s” is plural possessive.
Get used to hearing “You ain’t from round here, are ya?”
Save all manner of bacon grease. You will be instructed later on how to use it.
Don’t be worried at not understanding what people are saying. They can’t understand you either.
The first Southern statement to creep into a transplanted Northerner’s vocabulary is the adjective “big’ol,” truck or big’ol” boy. Most Northerners begin their Southern-influenced dialect this way. All of them are in denial about it.
The proper pronunciation you learned in school is no longer proper.
Be advised that “He needed killin.” is a valid defense here.
If you hear a Southerner exclaim, “Hey, y’all, watch this,” you should stay out of the way. These are likely to be the last words he’ll ever say.
If there is the prediction of the slightest chance of even the smallest accumulation of snow, your presence is required at the local grocery store. It doesn’t matter whether you need anything or not. You just have to go & gt; & gt there.
Do not be surprised to find that 10-year olds own their own shotguns, they are proficient marksmen, and their mammas taught them how to aim.
In the South, we have found that the best way to grow a lush green lawn is to pour gravel on it and call it a driveway.
AND REMEMBER: If you do settle in the South and bear children, don’t think we will accept them as Southerners. After all, if the cat had kittens in the oven, we wouldn’t call ‘em biscuits.
If there are seperate locker rooms between men and women isnt it mostly do to sexual reasons and either gender being uncomfortable? If that is the real reason to seperate the sexes, then dont straight men or women have an argument?
In my opinion – and others will disagree with this – separating locker rooms by gender is done so that people with like body types (male vs. female) are grouped together. It doesn’t matter that I’m gay; what matters is that I’m male, I have a male body, complete with male parts and physique, and should be in a locker room with other similarly-situated people. Most of the other guys in the locker room don’t know me or that I’m gay; those that do don’t seem concerned at all. If someone has a problem with my presence, it is his problem, not mine.
Does wanting to keep men or women out of the others locker rooms make you sexist?
No, because you’re not discriminating against anyone based on gender.
I dont think a straight person wanting to be seperate from gay men or women in a locker room is any more about prejudice than them wanting the opposite sex to be seperated. Am I worng? whats the difference between the two scenarios?
The difference is that gay men are still men; they look just like all the other men in the locker room. Why does nudity equate to sex in so many people’s minds? Of course I see other naked men in a men’s locker room, but I don’t stare, touch, or do anything else that is likely to make someone uncomfortable. I mind my own business, as does everyone else. What’s the big deal? Maybe RighteousIndignation has some insight.
Some people will be uncomfortable in a locker room no matter who else is there. I think a person who is uncomfortable in locker rooms should either avoid them or figure out how to become more comfortable with his body image. I would think that drawing a gay man’s eye should be taken as a compliment that one has done a good job sculpting his body, but of course in this homophobic society straight men would rather assume they’re about to be raped – as if that is at likely to happen!
It is interesting to observe the paranoia manifest itself on this blog. What would you suggest as a prudent course of action going forward?
I believe the phrase is, “Don’t feed the trolls!”
mark a,
Individuals who behave like this person cannot be reasoned with in this forum because they are locked in to a victim paradigm which grants them license to write whatever they want and be as immature and belligerent as they can in order to attempt to placate the angry, sad child within. The only persons of influence are possibly those who they may see as ideological or political allies – i.e., persons for whom they may have some respect. But even if those perceived allies speak out and encourage the individual to seek mental health counseling, the individual is far more likely to become defensive and turn their anger on the former ally (along with requisite name calling and charges of being in league with the enemy) rather than to be open to the advice.
In the end, the most effective course is to withhold attention and not engage the person directly.
“In the end, the most effective course is to withhold attention and not engage the person directly.”
Engaging indirectly encourages the same undesired behavior.
EBF,
Few people have the level of equanimity you do about their bodies and locker room situations. While I disagree that the majority of discomfort in those situations can be attributed to outright homophobia, it is plausible that there is some validity to the idea. The fact is that in our culture it is not acceptable for a straight male to be perceived as attractive to a gay male because this casts suspicion on the straight male in the eyes of his peers. While this is pure silliness, it is understandable that the dynamic makes straight males uncomfortable (which is not the same thing as outright homophobia). We all have an innate need to feel accepted and belong and situations which threaten that feeling – whether on the basis of a legitimate or illegitimate concern – are nonetheless valid.
While I would concur that the locker room environment may have become over-sexualized, the fact is that it is now the rare semi-public place in which people interact without clothing and while nudity is not always sexual it is extremely close. Consider also that the majority of men, hetero and homosexual, are extremely visual creatures. Even the most accepting and unselfconscious person can feel uncomfortable being viewed and appraised while nude even if the person viewing is of the opposite or same sexual orientation. Bottom line (no pun intended), heterosexual men need to buck up and get over the discomfort and recognize they are not being ogled by gay men in the locker room (unless they are some sort of Hollywood-type in which case they are not likely to be at the local Lifetime Fitness anyway) and gay men need to accept that there will always be some level of discomfort which is not the equivalent of raging anti-gay hysteria.
Mark b
Your a sicko. If your going to be anymore liberal I’m going to vomit. If liberal is the right word for your state of mind.
Everyone else, take a cold shower. please.
[diamondgrl says:
August 13th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
“In the end, the most effective course is to withhold attention and not engage the person directly.”
Engaging indirectly encourages the same undesired behavior.]
Agreed diamondgrl. Thus any engagement must be employed sparingly and yet there are times when it is appropriate and necessary to identify the issue and urge those individuals to seek change even in the face of impossible odds for success.
is it getting hot in here, or is it just me? One more reference about naked group showers and I’m going to break out the lotion.
“separating locker rooms by gender is done so that people with like body types (male vs. female) are grouped together.”
But why by body type? There must be a sexual component to that. Locker rooms are inherently discriminatory. Why is it ok to descriminate by body type (seeing that there is almost certainly a sexual component to it) and not by sexual orientation? I dont think women want men out of the locker room because of their physical differences. Id argue its about sex.
I would think you’d have a little more sensitivity towards short people by throwing out that “troll” reference. Practice what you preach you NUTJOB
thats it, squirt….squirt…..chap, chap,chap,chap, chap, chap, chap, chap, chap, chap, chap, chap, chap, chaaaaaap…………puh. please pass the t-paper
The fact is that in our culture it is not acceptable for a straight male to be perceived as attractive to a gay male because this casts suspicion on the straight male in the eyes of his peers.
Yet it is the ultimate goal to be perceived as attractive to females. So if some straight females and some gay males have the same taste in men, what is the straight guy to do?
We all have an innate need to feel accepted…
The exception being, apparently, having gay men accept a straight man’s body as attractive.
Consider also that the majority of men, hetero and homosexual, are extremely visual creatures.
Very good point, one that I had forgotten about — which I should not have since I am a typical male in that regard.
Even the most accepting and unselfconscious person can feel uncomfortable being viewed and appraised while nude even if the person viewing is of the opposite or same sexual orientation.
But here’s the rub — no one is viewing and appraising anyone! You can’t help seeing what’s there to be seen, which is not the same thing as “viewing and appraising.” I’d be just as upset as any straight guy if someone gave me an up-and-down “appraisal” in the locker room! I have not seen this happening.
[H]eterosexual men need to buck up and get over the discomfort and recognize they are not being ogled by gay men in the locker room…
Indeed.
[G]ay men need to accept that there will always be some level of discomfort which is not the equivalent of raging anti-gay hysteria.
Yeah, most of us are pretty familiar with this routine!
Thanks for your insights!
” If that person can see through the fog of his/her own delusions of grandeur and sad outbursts of petulant verbal abuse, I would strongly recommend they seek counseling asap to deal with their deep insecurities and aggression.” I’ll get right on that.
“Rove might be leaving the Bush administration, but you can bet he will be orchestrating a Swift Boat smear campaign against the Democratic presidental nominee once the name is announced.”
Yeah, like the Democrats wouldn’t ever try anything like that. Does the name Dan Rather come to mind?
mark a,
Ya, it is about about gender. I sure wouldn’t want a bunch of men ogling me in the locker room (I know men would love it if women would do that). I guess what we don’t know won’t hurt us; i.e., if there is a lesbian in the locker room, who cares? If she came on to me, she might get her a** kicked. Same for men…why would care if the guy in the next shower is gay? He’s still a guy.
EBF,
I guess what Im wondering is why is it ok for women to want men out of their locker room so they can feel comfortable(for sexual reasons) and not ok for straight men to want the same with regards to gay men?
If straight men were allowed to use womens locker rooms there would be plenty of ‘evaluations’. Am I to believe, being male, gay men dont do that? While I am all for complete integration and acceptance of homosexuals, this is one case where I think a precident has been set and if you allow one you have to allow both. Am I missing something in my logic?
“My problem is with the feelings some people here have that all gay men are pedophiles and cant be trusted.”
All gay men are not pedophiles, they just can’t be trusted.
mark a,
Despite some puerile objections, this is an interesting psychological/sociological question. Assuming the origins of separate bathroom facilities and locker rooms are in cultural and historical modes of propriety, why do these facilities remain largely separate (Ally McBeal notwithstanding)?
Human evolutionary development and psychological profiles dictate that we are inherently sexual beings. This fact does not evaporate once in the locker room regardless of cultural norms or best intentions. However, even if a woman’s locker room was opened to only homosexual males, it is likely that the vast majority of females would object – even though there would be no danger of sexual tension or “ogling” by the gay men.
Diamondgrl,
Im not advocating seperate locker rooms. Im simply trying to understand both sides of the argument. The dont ask dont tell solution for locker room dynamics seems acceptable to me. And I believe the genders are seperated because of sexual dynamics first and foremost.
Yeah, like the Democrats wouldn’t ever try anything like that. Does the name Dan Rather come to mind?
Does the name Billdo & Hillarious Clinton come to mind.
Wait till Hillarious gets the democratic nod. we may not have to wait that long. When it narrows down to just 2 left between Hillarious and Obama do you think she’ll hesitate to thrash him with her bondage whips?
mark a, you are not missing something. That was my sort of my point in the first place, however unenforcable. Why wouldn’t the homosexuals feel fine about that? Isn’t it kind of like the sheep in wolve’s clothing? What straight guy wouldn’t mine being able to go into the women’s locker room via the invisible cloak?
But why by body type? There must be a sexual component to that. Locker rooms are inherently discriminatory. Why is it ok to descriminate by body type (seeing that there is almost certainly a sexual component to it) and not by sexual orientation? I dont think women want men out of the locker room because of their physical differences. Id argue its about sex.
I suppose it is about sex, at least for most people, but it doesn’t make sense to discriminate by sexual orientation. You’d have to build twice the number of facilities that you already do, and there’s nothing to stop a closeted gay man from using a straight men’s locker room. How would you enforce a “straight men only” policy for the straight men’s locker room? Really, if you don’t know that the guy next to you is gay, what’s the problem? And if you find out that he’s gay, the only thing that’s changed is your knowledge of the situation – so again, what’s the problem? Maybe I just don’t have the hang-ups that most straight guys seem to have….
If straight men were allowed to use womens locker rooms there would be plenty of ‘evaluations’.
It would be the women evaluating the gay men, not the other way around.
Am I to believe, being male, gay men dont do that?
Of course some do. The smart ones refrain, though, or at least are discreet about it.
While I am all for complete integration and acceptance of homosexuals, this is one case where I think a precident has been set and if you allow one you have to allow both.
Good luck getting the funds to build new locker and shower facilities everywhere! And the only precedent is for gender, not sexual orientation.
Am I missing something in my logic?
Yes, I think so. diamondgrl said it best: “why would [you] care if the guy in the next shower is gay? He’s still a guy.” And her comment about someone getting his ass kicked for coming on to someone else is right on.
RI says:
“However, even if a woman’s locker room was opened to only homosexual males, it is likely that the vast majority of females would object – even though there would be no danger of sexual tension or “ogling” by the gay men.”
And how many men would all of sudden claim to be gay?
mark a says:
Diamondgrl,
Im not advocating seperate locker rooms. Im simply trying to understand both sides of the argument. The dont ask dont tell solution for locker room dynamics seems acceptable to me. And I believe the genders are seperated because of sexual dynamics first and foremost.
Yes, and I’m agreeing with you.
“How would you enforce a “straight men only” policy for the straight men’s locker room?”
Excellent point. Its not practical.
“If straight men were allowed to use womens locker rooms there would be plenty of ‘evaluations’.
It would be the women evaluating the gay men, not the other way around.”
You must have misread this. I said straight men. My point being that gay men certainly ‘evaluate’ other men in the locker room. If I was to believe otherwise, Id have to assume straight men wouldnt do that in a womens locker room, something I doubt very highly.
“And the only precedent is for gender, not sexual orientation.”
Again its my opinion that the gender seperation is more about sex than body parts.
“Yes, I think so. diamondgrl said it best: “why would [you] care if the guy in the next shower is gay? He’s still a guy.” ”
I myself dont care. But I can certainly understand why other straight men would. Have similar body parts doesnt make it easier for a straight guy who feels hes being evaluated. So Im still wondering why are the feelings of women and men in regards to the opposite sex understood, and straight peoples feelings about homosexuals in locker rooms not valid? I really think you’re underestimating the secual reason for seperating the genders.
AvGuy, you say gay men are not to be trusted. In what regard? In regards to their interactions with children? With other men?
Following your logic, shouldn’t all men not be trusted, and then all women not be trusted, too?
Please explain.
“And how many men would all of sudden claim to be gay?”
Another excellent point. Its really not practical to seperate them at all based on sexual orientation. But I can understand the feelings of straight men and women who feel differently.
Bdaniel367,
Not to answer for Avg Guy, but he was most certainly joking.
And how many men would all of sudden claim to be gay?
Oh, diamondgrl, that’s the best laugh I’ve had today! Touché!!
I really think you’re underestimating the secual reason for seperating the genders.
Yes, I probably am, and am also likely overestimating the security I thought most straight men would have in their own sexuality. Shame on me for forgetting that being gay makes me a perverted, untrustworthy pedophile….
“AvGuy, you say gay men are not to be trusted. In what regard? In regards to their interactions with children? With other men?
Following your logic, shouldn’t all men not be trusted, and then all women not be trusted, too?
Please explain.”
“POTATO!!”
[Evil Baby Fauvel says:
August 13th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
“We all have an innate need to feel accepted…”
The exception being, apparently, having gay men accept a straight man’s body as attractive.]
The need for acceptance referenced here is by group affiliations – family, social groups, friends, etc. We do not have an inherent desire or need to accept that all others find us attractive. Note that many women will respond to a male advance from someone they find unattractive in a negative manner – “buzz off, creep” – but are more responsive to attention from a suitor they do find attractive – see hair flip, giggle.
The principle holds true for a straight male. They want attention and attraction from females they find attractive and do not want attention and attraction from unattractive (to them) females or gay males. The more well-adjusted and enlightened may be flattered but it is perfectly normal to reject or be uncomfortable with undesired attraction or attention.
Logic dictates that gay men are not going to pursue straight men and lesbians are no going to pursue straight women.
Everyone looks at everyone else in the locker room; it’s human nature. Someone looking at you is not going to hurt you.
The more well-adjusted and enlightened may be flattered but it is perfectly normal to reject or be uncomfortable with undesired attraction or attention.
Is it perfectly normal for gay men to be uncomfortable with undesired attraction or attention from females? I have known some women who find me attractive, and I just felt sorry for them.
For clarity, by “normal” I simply mean that it is not necessarily a lack of security or homophobia that accounts for a straight males’ discomfort with being perceived as attractive by a gay male.
As an aside, a great episode of “How I Met Your Mother” from last season had a very funny take on some aspects of this.
Logic dictates that gay men are not going to pursue straight men and lesbians are no going to pursue straight women.
But they might pursue a straight person perceived to be gay.
Someone looking at you is not going to hurt you.
Only their pride, dear, only their pride….
“overestimating the security I thought most straight men would have in their own sexuality. Shame on me for forgetting that being gay makes me a perverted, untrustworthy pedophile”
No, I think you probably have the right idea when it comes to straight men. But If we can understand why some people dont want to be looked at in a sexual way by the opposite sex, hence the seperate locker rooms, can you really be surprised straight men and women might want seperate locker rooms? Is that irrational?
“Logic dictates that gay men are not going to pursue straight men and lesbians are no going to pursue straight women.”
I think its the idea that you may be pursued and have to explain to the pursuer youre not gay. That might make a person uncomfortable.
” Someone looking at you is not going to hurt you.”
Until they talk to you, then you might have to kick some ass! :)
EBF, as normal as it is for anyone to be attracted to or desire any unattainable figure. Obviously, attraction is not dictated by logic and reason. I see several female clients who are deeply unhappy about being single yet whose entire (nearly) social networks consist of gay men. Not the most effective way to meet Mr. Right if you are a straight woman (perhaps they should consider wandering into the nearest men’s locker room? – yikes, highly unprofessional humor on my part).
Then the straight person should make it clear in a reasonable manner that they are not interested. Pretty simple.
“I have known some women who find me attractive, and I just felt sorry for them.”
But then again you werent naked in a locker room. Being naked for some people is a very vulnerable position to be in. You are obviously a very sefl aware and confident individual. I think unwanted percieved sexual attention can be intimidating for people coming from either a straight or gay person. For that reason I can understand why less confident individuals might advocate for seperate locker rooms. My point is that doesnt make them any more homophobic than people wanting seperate gender locker rooms are sexist.
[Evil Baby Fauvel says:
August 13th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
But they might pursue a straight person perceived to be gay.]
Would this indicate that their gaydar is somehow on the fritz?
“Then the straight person should make it clear in a reasonable manner that they are not interested. Pretty simple.”
I thought you were ready to kick lesbian butt if you were come on to? Or was that homo humor? :)
Avg Guy,
See how well that worked!
POTATO! I love that word.
I apologize if this point has already been addressed; haven’t had time to read all the comments above.
I like having separate locker rooms for men vs. women. It looks like others here like it too, which is heartening. I think, correct me if wrong, some countries don’t have this kind of segregation, so I like our setup better.
Let me propose that whether or not someone other person in the locker room is homosexual is something that most men have never thought about (I can at least confirm that I’ve never thought about this issue until today), because it’s none of our g-d- business.
Separate locker rooms are to protect women from men. If that is sexist, so be it.
My heterosexual security is reinforced by the slight twinge of excitement I feel when contemplating some sort of semi-dressed wrestling match between diamondgrl and her locker room lesbian suitor.
Just because I am a psychologist does not mean my adolescence is in full remission.
My point is that doesnt make them any more homophobic than people wanting seperate gender locker rooms are sexist.
Why not? Isn’t the definition of homophobia irrational fear of gay people? Wouldn’t the fear of being seen naked by a gay person, in either a sexual or non-sexual way, be irrational? Perhaps you should define “homophobia” for us. Homophobia is a phobia; sexism is not. I don’t see how you can really compare the two.
Would this indicate that their gaydar is somehow on the fritz?
Hard as I know it is to believe, it has been known to happen from time to time….
[Y]ikes, highly unprofessional humor on my part.
What, professionals can’t have a sense of humor? :)
Translation for Mark a posts for those unfamiliar with how phony the guy is.
I’m my opinion its blah blah blah, nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. Farther more I believe its gobbledygook, nonsense and more nonsense. Because you see I’m blah,blah, gibberish nonsense. And if you think (insert some internet statistics here) isn’t true then (Insert latest newest trendy phrase here)
EBF,
Yes, homophobia is based on irrationality. But not all (I would say the minority) of discomfort in these situations is based on homophobia (as I’ve outline in other posts above).
Yes, homophobia is based on irrationality. But not all (I would say the minority) of discomfort in these situations is based on homophobia (as I’ve outline in other posts above).
That wasn’t my point. Of course homophobia, like all phobias, is based on irrationality. My point was that if any discomfort experienced in a locker room is, at its root, related to someone else in that locker room being gay, how is it not homophobic? The reaction certainly may not be intentionally homophobic — as you’ve stated, the reaction can happen in enlightened, rational people and can be involuntary — but if the reaction itself can be traced to some kind of feelings about a GLBT person, I would think that that reaction, by definition, would be homophobic, even if very mild and unintentional.
So, what is the definition of “homophobia?” What is the definition of “sexist?” Is sexism based on an irrational fear? If not, how can it be compared meaningfully to homophobia?
“Perhaps you should define “homophobia” for us.”
EBF, perhaps you should define “irrational” for us? I don’t think anything in mark a’s post is irrational. However it appears anything you disagree with in today’s subject is irrational to you. Just because I might not want to shower next to a gay man doesn’t mean I have an irrational fear him. Maybe I just don’t like it.
EBF, perhaps you should define “irrational” for us?
Sorry, I’m done feeding trolls today.
I don’t think anything in mark a’s post is irrational.
Neither do I. Just because I disagree with him doesn’t mean he’s irrational. Or that I am.
However it appears anything you disagree with in today’s subject is irrational to you.
Arguing my viewpoints does not imply that other viewpoints with which I disagree are irrational. I may not understand them, but that does not make them irrational per se.
Just because I might not want to shower next to a gay man doesn’t mean I have an irrational fear him. Maybe I just don’t like it.
That’s OK, AG. I’m sure they don’t like showering next to you, either.
But, how does one know if the person next to them is gay? What difference does it make?
“Homophobe” I word gays use as an attack mechanism to describe people who disagree with their lifestyle. The word in it of itself is not a reflection of the person who disagrees with the gay lifestyle.
I other words DON’T TURN YOUR SHAME ON ME !
What’s marka then a “Conservaphobe”
I’m a “Buttf%$kophobe” I’ll admit to that
Does anyone else think KK has an obsession with young boys? I seriously doubt that the most pressing problem in the United States in 2000 was “an inability to socialize our young men”. In retrospect, it was the repeated warnings of an impending terrorist attack that our new administration repeatedly ignored.
Poverty comes to mind as a greater threat to boys than “socialization”, since it directly contributes to divorce and crime. But I know that notion is too “liberal” for this crowd.
Re: the Rove resignation. I personally think it has more to do with impending indictments. An awful lot of nefarious activity leads back to Rove. He’s leaving to “spend more time with his family” because if there’s any justice, he’ll soon be spending lots of time in jail.
EBF,
My point is feeling uncomfortable about a stranger looking at you in a sexual way isnt always because that other person is gay. They may be gay and you may be straight, thats not the point Im making. The point is its unwanted sexual attention. All im trying to say is that if we are going to question straight mens motives for wanting seperate locker rooms, we should look at the reasons we split the genders in the first place. Its because of unwanted sexual attention. Now if we can agree that men are visual and have healthy sex drives, we can agree that men would look at women if there were unisex locker rooms. If you can agree that gay men are visual too, you can agree that gay men are going to look at other nude men in the locker room. Its not a leap of imagination to think that women lose in a mens locker room would make some men uncomfortable. Why is it irrational to think that gay men in a locker room would make prudish straight men uneasy?
Some men may dream of being thrown into a womens shower, to others that may be a scary thought. My point is nudity and sex is an intimidating thing to many straight men, their fear of having someone look at them sexually may be irrational, but it has less to do with homophobia than you may think.
Mark B, Ummm I mean Brimn,you’re not fooling anyone but yourself.
“But, how does one know if the person next to them is gay? What difference does it make?”
Good point, diamondgrl. I don’t think it makes a difference. Straight men typically don’t chase down every woman they see during the course of a day, so it wouldn’t be any different with a gay man. I don’t think being gay makes people take total leave of their senses, causing them to chase down anyone they see. That’s not logical.
Being a straight woman, I do try to chase down every guy I see, but that’s another story. :)
“Wouldn’t the fear of being seen naked by a gay person, in either a sexual or non-sexual way, be irrational?”
Is it anymore irrational than a women being scared to be seen naked by a straight man? If it all comes down to action on the ‘evaluators’ part then why not have coed locker rooms. Ill tell you why, its because women dont want to be looked at in a sexual way by strangers. If a straight man feels that way I can understand that. I dont think it means hes homophobic, just shy.
Ok, let’s compromise. One shower for all!!
“Straight men typically don’t chase down every woman they see during the course of a day, so it wouldn’t be any different with a gay man.”
If thats the case then why not have coed locker rooms? Wouldnt be because they are segregated for sexual reasons would it?
“Its not a leap of imagination to think that women lose in a mens locker room would make some men uncomfortable.”
The image of female sports reporters in a locker room comes to mind. I know that’s been an issue, though I think most athletes have become used to it by now.
NADB,
Way off topic but your end line got me thinking about some of my female patients. Do you ask men out on dates? If so, how did you develop this ability?
“Ill tell you why, its because women dont want to be looked at in a sexual way by strangers. If a straight man feels that way I can understand that. I dont think it means hes homophobic, just shy.”
But, isn’t this an assumption that gay men are looking at straight men in the locker room in a “sexual” way? Somehow, I don’t think that’s the case. Just because someone is gay, it doesn’t mean they are attracted to everyone of the same sex any more than heteros are attracted to every person of the opposite sex.
The point is its unwanted sexual attention.
Is all looking sexual? If I don’t find you attractive, is it sexual? If I’m straight and I look at you, is it sexual?
If you can agree that gay men are visual too, you can agree that gay men are going to look at other nude men in the locker room.
Of course gay men are going to look at other nude men in the locker room. So will straight men. You can’t help but see it. Looking isn’t necessarily sexual. Leering or staring, on the other hand, might be.
Sure, I’ve seen some attractive naked men in the locker room. But I don’t stare at them, or leer at them, or do anything that could be considered even remotely sexual. I just mind my own business, and most don’t even know I’m gay.
Its not a leap of imagination to think that women lose in a mens locker room would make some men uncomfortable.
I’d be among those uncomfortable men.
Why is it irrational to think that gay men in a locker room would make prudish straight men uneasy?
It’s not at all irrational to think that. But that’s different from the reaction itself being irrational.
[T]heir fear of having someone look at them sexually may be irrational, but it has less to do with homophobia than you may think.
Then what does it have to do with? If the only people in a men’s locker room who would look at a naked straight man in a sexual way are gay men, then how is it not homophobic? I’m not using the word “homophobic” here in the commonly-used vernacular way to imply feelings being somehow wrong or invalid; rather, I’m trying to use it in a value-neutral and more clinical way, just meaning an irrational fear of gay men. If a naked straight guy has no problem with other straight men seeing him, but has a problem with gay men seeing him, I still think it’s a homophobic reaction (again, in a value-neutral, clinical way).
Is it paranoia or does every straight guy think that everyone is looking at him in a sexual way? Or is it wishful thinking?
mark a, I think there’s also a historical pattern to consider here. Men are more likely to be sexual aggressors than women. Some women are certainly capable of that, but generally it’s the males. While they may not show that aggression fully dressed, I imagine it would be more likely in a locker room situation.
It may not be politically correct, but I think it’s true.
Does the same hold true for gay men then? I don’t know. Do they have the same aggressive traits as straight men? Don’t know that either.
This is one of those problems that goes in circles like an MC Escher drawing.
every straight guy except brimn2001.
He thinks everyone is looking at him in an intellectual way.
“Then what does it have to do with?”
Sex makes some people uncomfortable. You may be comfortable in the nude and not care about others being around. Others do care. (I think your best argument was to say stay out of locker rooms if your intimidated) You must know some straight men intimidateed by women or attention from them? We keep women out of our locker rooms for those men. Being intimidated by sexual attention might be a fear of sex in general, not necesarilly gay men.
“But that’s different from the reaction itself being irrational.”
Its irrational to be uncomfortable being stared at in the nude?
“If a naked straight guy has no problem with other straight men seeing him, but has a problem with gay men seeing him, I still think it’s a homophobic reaction (again, in a value-neutral, clinical way).”
Id say it has to do with the ammount of looking. Also, Id agree with you if that subject had no problem being stared at by women. If that same person didnt want to be stared at by women or gay men Id say he is a shy man and has a right to his privacy. In the end I dont think segregating straight and gay people in locker room settings is reasonable. The best solution is to remove any bad actors, like Bosacker. But being uncomfortable at being stred at isnt irrational or homophobic (in the colquial sense of the term).
Does the same hold true for gay men then? I don’t know. Do they have the same aggressive traits as straight men?
I think they do, but a gay man is going to have a much more difficult time being aggressive toward another man than a straight man would have toward a woman. Most straight men could beat the crap out of me (as could most women, for that matter), so even if I had aggressive tendencies, the likely outcome of actually expressing them would keep them in check.
“While they may not show that aggression fully dressed, I imagine it would be more likely in a locker room situation.”
Men knowing how other men are, I can see why some may be uncomfortable with gay men in the locker room and perfectly comfortable with them in every other conceavable place. Kind of like how a straight man may be totally comfoartbale with women outside of the locker room but intimidated by them in a nude group setting.
[diamondgrl says:
August 13th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Is it paranoia or does every straight guy think that everyone is looking at him in a sexual way? Or is it wishful thinking?]
It’s called narcissism. Because most men are highly visual and are frequently (consciously and unconsciously) visually evaluating and assessing the opposite sex (or same sex for gay men), they assume that everyone else behaves the same way. This is not a value judgment it’s just reality of how men are visually focused and how most people (male and female) assume the everyone else acts (or should) the same way they do.
Its irrational to be uncomfortable being stared at in the nude?
No, but I differentiated between passively seeing someone and actively leering at him.
Id say he is a shy man and has a right to his privacy.
In a locker room? Anyone who expects privacy in a locker room should keep out of them!
“Is it paranoia or does every straight guy think that everyone is looking at him in a sexual way? Or is it wishful thinking?”
This made me laugh! I think it depends on the guy. For some, it’s definitely wishful thinking! But I think anxiety probably plays a role for others.
Righteousindignation: No, I don’t ask men out on dates, I was just teasing. But my alter ego would really like me to! If you come up with an easy and acceptable way to go about that, let me know. I get the feeling most men would feel uncomfortable with that situation. Or maybe I just need to find different men…
“Is it paranoia or does every straight guy think that everyone is looking at him in a sexual way? Or is it wishful thinking?”
I dont think anyone is saying that, at least Im not. The best thing to do is forget about it, dont freak out, keep your eyes pointed above the waist, and hands off until your out of the club and the other person is receptive. I just can understand why a person wouldnt want to be looked at sexually in a locker room.
“I get the feeling most men would feel uncomfortable with that situation.”
Are you kidding? Plenty of men like aggresive women. Others, like the guys who dont want women in the locker room, dont. But most men do. My advice, next guy you find attractive, ask him out. If hes not wearing a ring and he isnt in the buff, he’ll probably say yes.
I just can understand why a person wouldnt want to be looked at sexually in a locker room.
Me too — hey, we agree on something today! But I still say that not all looking is sexual. Like you said, it has to do with the amount of looking. I’d add it also has to do with how one goes about looking — passively just seeing what’s there vs. actively staring or leering.
“If hes not wearing a ring and he isnt in the buff, he’ll probably say yes.”
Good advice! Note to self: stay away from naked married guys… :)
“No, but I differentiated between passively seeing someone and actively leering at him.”
I understand what you are saying. Im sure gay men behave themselves in the locker room. But, if a gay man was leering at another man and it made him uncomfortable, what should the policy be? Would he be acting irrational to be upset?
“But I still say that not all looking is sexual.”
I agree with you too EBF. I think we agree on most things save price gouging and perhaps a few other economic issues that escape me right now. What I do appreciate is our ability to discuss this rationally and civily. Also I want to make it clear I dont advocate seperate locker rooms. Im simply empathizing with (note not sympathyzing) men who may be uncomfortable with gay men staring at them in the locker room.
NADB,
You wont be disapointed I assure you. And if you are try again, its better than a 50/50 shot. Id love a gal to buy me a drink and ask me out, if I wasnt married. Even still Id be flattered.
[I]f a gay man was leering at another man and it made him uncomfortable, what should the policy be? Would he be acting irrational to be upset?
The policy should be that people who cannot behave appropriately in a locker room should not be allowed in it. Of course there would have to be safeguards against abuse of such a policy; a straight man shouldn’t be able to have a gay man kicked out unless the gay man really was behaving inappropriately.
A person who was leered at in a locker room would not be acting irrational if he were upset. Leering is inappropriate locker room behavior.
“Of course there would have to be safeguards against abuse of such a policy; a straight man shouldn’t be able to have a gay man kicked out unless the gay man really was behaving inappropriately”
I like the policy and I think it sounds fair. Should there be an army like dont ask or tell policy attached to that? I think it might be a good idea actually in order to protect gay men from being unfairly targeted.
I like the policy and I think it sounds fair. Should there be an army like dont ask or tell policy attached to that? I think it might be a good idea actually in order to protect gay men from being unfairly targeted.
I don’t think it would work. Lots of people already know I’m gay, and they’re not going to lose that knowledge if they walk into the locker room with me. I don’t think it’s fair to ask gay men and lesbians to closet themselves because straight people are uncomfortable with them, no matter what the situation or location – in either the armed forces or anywhere else. Ultimately, all of us – gay and straight – simply need to use common sense in all situations.
I can see that.
I agree that whether men, women, gay or straight, everyone should be held to the same standards of behavior in situations where people feel vulnerable. Bottom line - don’t do anything stupid.
I would be against the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy for the reasons EBF stated. It’s discriminatory toward gays. Straight people aren’t told to keep it to themselves so they don’t make gay people uncomfortable.
A bit of a side topic - did anyone see the story over the weekend about the Texas mega church that was about to hold a memorial service for their janitor? He wasn’t a church member, but had been their janitor for some time. When they found out he was gay, they refused to hold the service. They believe homosexuality is a sin. Even if you were to believe that, I guess none of the other members have ever committed a sin in their lives. They somehow got around being born into sin like everyone else. The church is run by the brother in law of Joel Osteen.
Amazing how Mark B and Brimn both disapeared at the same time.
Just a thought or two.
Now in my late fifties, my days of being leered at by anyone of any persuasion are long past. Well, my husband still does on occasion, but I think he is teasing me. Or perhaps trying to make me feel good.
Until I read the posts in response to this blog, I was completely unaware of how widespread and pervasive the problem of shower room leering was. Judging by the comments here, it appears to be a rather serious problem of almost epidemic proportions. And clearly of obvious concern to several of the posters here. Perhaps Garrison Keillor could be persuaded to take a serious look at the subject.
Many, many years ago, while an undergrad, I was a member of the women’s varsity track team at the university I attended and, as such, showered several days each week with my teammates. I don’t recall having ever been leered at by any of them (perhaps I was not leerable) and certainly don’t recall any particular concerns in that regard. Well, maybe those shot putters . . . .
Of course, had any of my teammates been atheists, that might have been cause for some serious concern in the shower room.
An aside for the prurient among us: No, our male coaches did not shower with us.
How ya doing, EBF?
Mark a.
I can’t speak for Brimn2001 or mark b, But I for one have steared clear of posting my thoughts to todays conversation for one reason only. I didn’t want join the ranks of brimn2110, tomriggs or mark b. I don’t have anything constructive to add that wouldn’t offend everyone.
I’ll go with what Average Guy has said.
See ya all tuesday. hope its a good topic for all.
Amazing how Mark B and Brimn both disapeared at the same time.
Thats because Mark B and Brimn both have jobs. You know jobs…. Its not a Bank job and its not a government job so they have to work.
“…Its not a Bank job and its not a government job so they have to work. ..”
I’m sure those tens of thousands of government employees called “soldiers” will be interested to learn they don’t have to work.
Brimn2001!!!! You crawled back out into the daylight. does that mean if you see your shadow we get 5 more hours of your disfigured intellect?
Hey now. lets leave the military out of this one because we all know better.
True, we all know better. I was simply pointing out the silliness of brimn2001’s comment and logic.
yeah, logic.
neo-conpoops are just full of it.
“True, we all know better. I was simply pointing out the silliness of brimn2001’s comment and logic.”
ahhhh…JonR thats a rookie response ..a damn reach and very week Work on it will ya !
How ya doing, EBF?
We’re doing very well Susan, thanks — I trust all is well out your way, too! Thanks for your posts — they’re always interesting, relevant and give an unexpected yet incisive perspective. I’m still stunned by your first one on this Boy Scout blog. I feel like I should respond somehow because the sacrifice your family made is astounding, but I really don’t know how; words, for once, fail me.
Anyway, I’m really glad you posted here again; I wish there were something I could say to get you to do it more often! :)
A bit of a side topic - did anyone see the story over the weekend about the Texas mega church that was about to hold a memorial service for their janitor?
Yes, I saw that story on advocate.com. I learn so much about Christianity and Christians from acts like this.
No, that is not a reach. You stated that government employees don’t work and I noted that soldiers are government employees.
So, please enlighten us. Give us specific examples of government employees that don’t work.
“Thats because Mark B and Brimn both have jobs. You know jobs…. Its not a Bank job and its not a government job so they have to work.”
Yeah, I wish I could get one of those jobs breaking rocks or picking up trash on the interstate. But unlucky me. I have a brain in my head and Im stuck in this air conditioned office. I should have never educated myself. Its been such a waste.
Each day, I’ll be posting a “vintage” column…
Well, I’m sure the intent was there….
Readers sometimes ask which of all my columns I like best. To find out, log on to Think Again on Wednesday, August 15….
Shall we place some bets? Here’s mine: the column entitled “Marriage: An Exclusively Heterosexual Institution.” I believe it was the first one she published when she returned to the Strib after her hiatus.
“Shall we place some bets?”
Id put the odds at 3/1
My money is on “Michelle Bachman is a great role model for young girls” & “Democrats secret plan to steal all your money and guns”
Wasn’t there also an article suggesting that same-sex marriage would lead to polygamy?
Wasn’t there also an article suggesting that same-sex marriage would lead to polygamy?
Yeah, I kind of remember that, but I would expect that “argument” to show up in any of her columns about same-sex marriage. I also seem to remember that when she first returned to the Strib, she published three columns about same-sex marriage in a very short period of time. And people think I’m obsessed!
Given her expertise with regard to First Americans, she must have a good “injun-bashing” piece somewhere in the archives. Perhaps one of those thoughtful, in-depth pieces informing all that skin-color team names, fierce logos and hatchet chops are really meant to honor Natives.
Thanks for the kind words, EBF. I don’t dwell on it, but it’s just something I have to get out of my system on occasion. Jack is up in MT buying bulls so I am flying up to Billings tomorrow. Might make a side trip to the Little Bighorn for a chuckle. :-)
“Given her expertise with regard to First Americans, she must have a good “injun-bashing” piece somewhere in the archives. Perhaps one of those thoughtful, in-depth pieces informing all that skin-color team names, fierce logos and hatchet chops are really meant to honor Natives.”
Don’t forget the “Fighting Irish.”
Point well taken,Free.
Free,
Now, if the Irish start to complain….
“Yeah, I wish I could get one of those jobs breaking rocks or picking up trash on the interstate.”
Mark a, unfortunatly those jobs are already taken by illegal immigrants that a exploited by their employers. They live in fear of deportation and treated miserably with less than minimum wage pay. they have no one to turn to because they are illegal.
But its a good thing they come here for a “better life” so those who can will use them up and line thier pockets with someone elses sweat.
I hope there’s another article printed today, that way we can break up the love fest that mark a, EBF, JonR and Susan are having since everyone else seems they’ve had enough of this one!
What about the “Vikings?”
“Perhaps one of those thoughtful, in-depth pieces informing all that skin-color team names, fierce logos and hatchet chops are really meant to honor Natives.” Before you speak about something you don’t know anything about, perhaps you should do some research and find out just how the Cleveland Indians did get their name!
right on average _guy. my skin is still crawling from yesterday.
I think we should come up with some new names for teams. How about the Islam Bombers? The Arab Terrorists? The Muslem Suicides? More? Anyone…anyone…
Hi, all,
To return to the initial topic -
“What’s the most pressing problem in America today? There’s a growing consensus that it’s an inability to socialize our young men.”
Sharon Sayles Belton admitted in print a few years ago that 2/3 to 3/4 of all violent cries committed in Minneapolis were committed by young black men. She added that at least 90% of them had been in Minneapolis less than six months. Up here on the North Side the educated guess was that these were guys coming in from out of town to stake out drug-selling turf.
It has been known in Minneapolis’ black community for about 40 years that there is a big problem here (and I have no doubt it crosses all racial and ethnic lines). In 1968 one Rev. Robinson, a black man and the director of TCOIC (at Lyndale and N. 7th Street) said it was very difficult to persuade young men that in the long run they would be better off finishing high school, rather than dropping out and imitating the obvious status symbols they saw: the pimps and drug dealers who had flashy clothes, cars, and women.
He also mentioned that Hennepin County was known nationwide for being an “easy welfare” county.
It seems to me that the good reverend has been proven right - sorry as I am to say it.
A_G,
How did the cleveland Indians get their name?
How about the Talibani Towel Heads, Dead Mullahs or The Alaalaalaalaa
the Dead Enders, Last Throws,
Fahlluja Collateral
Wasn’t the nickname derived in reference to a Native American who played for Cleveland in the late 1890’s?
“Mark a, unfortunatly those jobs are already taken by illegal immigrants that a exploited by their employers. They live in fear of deportation and treated miserably with less than minimum wage pay. they have no one to turn to because they are illegal.”
Hmmmm, here’s an idea that will solve most of these “issues.”
Don’t come here unless you do it legally.
If you break the laws to enter our country you deserve to reap what you sow.
“If you break the laws to enter our country you deserve to reap what you sow.”
No, you should get thrown the hell out. If you let them reap what they sow they will drive down wages, over burden the health and school system, commit crimes and generally drag us all down trying to cover the costs. as they are currently doing.
Now I’m talkin about the illegals.
During the early days of the Cleveland baseball team they had an American Indian playing for them. The story goes that they would get a lot of heckling when playing out of town because of it. So, to stand together for their teammate they started calling themselves the Indians. To me that does appear to honor the guy. However, the logo is somewhat stupid.
Mark a, did you eat allot of paint chips in your development years?
“However, the logo is somewhat stupid”
Good information on the indians. The logo is pretty crazy. Im sorry to hear you were offended by the lovefest.
Really hope that Mark B/Brimn doesnt own a gun. If he/they do, I may be dead soon. This fascination with me is getting scary in a stalker kind of way. You dont get your orders from a dog do you?
all female team called the “Talibani Toweletts”
due to the lead content of paint I only allow my kids to chew on toys made in china.
“Really hope that Mark B/Brimn doesn’t own a gun. If he/they do, I may be dead soon. This fascination with me is getting scary in a stalker kind of way. You dont get your orders from a dog do you?”
I draw your attention to the last line. Since your promise to ignore me you have referred to me in the “third person”…which technically we could say is ignoring, as tiptoe on the line as it maybe.
But that last line, that’s a direct response to me in the “real person”. You broke your promise again…(Canada move promise)by my math that promise lasted less the 72 hours. I knew you couldn’t do it…… you “Claven” you.
Congratulations Brimn, you must be proud of your accomplishment. You baited me and I responded. I am curious to know however, why you think I ever promised to move to Canada? I never made any kind of promise in a direct or indirect way to that effect. What makes you think Id move to Canada? What other things have you made up about me in your mind?
will…not…jump…on….bandwagon
Tom,
Which bandwagon?
you and brimn are going at it again and I will not personally attack either one of you for the heck of it. Like last time.
PS, I understand now that its a spectator sport.
Sometimes I fall off the wagon. Like I said, Brimn is only interested in bringing out the worst in those around him.
An Apology for past and future incedents
To whom it may concern,
It has come to my attention that my behavior last week was once again unacceptable and vulgar. I would like to extend my apologies to you and all offended parties. I was dealing with a crushingly stressful period of sobriety that bought out the dark ugly side of my wonderful yet fragile personality. It made my outlook on life unbearable and I lashed out at those who I personally hold in high esteem. I want to be clear that my opinions are not that of my employer and my attitude is not a reflection of my employers moral standards.
I have been drinking heavily since my latest outburst. I hope to continue this current therapeutic drinking binge until I have cleansed my mind of all that is evil. I do expect this to take some time and welcome any intervention from my friends and family to keep me on this course.
Booze good, water bad.
Sincerely your devoted fan
tomriggs
“Yes, I saw that story on advocate.com. I learn so much about Christianity and Christians from acts like this.”
Well, some of us are still living in reality, EBF. :) My dad’s a retired minister and stuff like this nauseates him. He may be uncomfortable around gays (a generational thing, I think), but he would never withhold spiritual services from anyone. The evangelicals are trying really hard to take over and they’re creating more rules than ever before. Sad.
FC: Wasn’t there also a trend of people coming from Gary, Indiana? I seem to remember a story about that some time ago, and how that had coincided with increases in crime. I could be wrong, though.
tomriggs: The injection of humor is greatly appreciated. We need it on this blog. (Disclaimer: Rash, redness or swelling may appear at injection site.)
“Perhaps one of those thoughtful, in-depth pieces informing all that skin-color team names, fierce logos and hatchet chops are really meant to honor Natives.” Before you speak about something you don’t know anything about…
You do realize that Susan is Native American, don’t you?
I hope there’s another article printed today, that way we can break up the love fest that mark a, EBF, JonR and Susan are having since everyone else seems they’ve had enough of this one!
Unfortunately, there is no new blog from Katherine today. We’re just biding our time.
So, AG, any bets on tomorrow’s promised “favorite article?”
Oh, and why do all of your new team names have to bash Muslims, Arabs and/or Islam? I thought you were more afraid of gay men in locker rooms….
I remember those good old Saturday nights at the “b” house. Sittin’ down with our favorite family snack, “paint chips, dip and some Pepsi-Cola and watch Bonanza !
Then if we where good, dad would bring out the mercury and let us play with it at the kitchen table.
“You do realize that Susan is Native American, don’t you?” Doesn’t matter. You can be of any race and be ignorant of why Cleveland is called the Indians. If in fact she is an American Indian then she of all people should know the facts and perhaps be proud of why they did it.
Mark b,
You had mercury?
I remember going hiking and fishing with my dad as a kid and when we would get thirsty he would say “here suck on a couple of these lead fishing weights”.
Speaking of mercury - I used to live in small town Wisconsin and one of the chemical plants near there was recently given the dubious distinction of being responsible for 28% of the entire state’s mercury output. Kind of explains why we knew so many people with cancer. Between that and the paper mills, I’m surprised babies aren’t born with gills around there.
“Oh, and why do all of your new team names have to bash Muslims, Arabs and/or Islam? I thought you were more afraid of gay men in locker rooms?”
Wrong. One look at me in the shower and they would be ashamed of their bodies and would run and hide.
Besides, I wasn’t bashing anyone, just calling it like it is. They should be honored!!
What about 3M polluting all of our water? This is becoming increasingly widespread and it doesn’t seem like the company is taking too much responsibility for it. It is sounding like the state of MN. is going to be picking up the tab on this one.
“What about 3M polluting ALL of our water?”
Shut them down permanently and lay everyone off, who needs 3M anyway. How dare they defacate in your water.
DG - Yes, that’s scary. It goes beyond breaking the law. Don’t these people have a conscience?
On AG’s Muslim issues: I’m going back to a Psychology Today article I cited last week, “Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature”. One of them is that most suicide bombers are Muslim. Note I said suicide bombers, not terrorists. The psychological reason for it has less to do with Islam than with polygyny.
Here’s the excerpt:
“Most suicide bombers are Muslim
According to the Oxford University sociologist Diego Gambetta, editor of Making Sense of Suicide Missions, a comprehensive history of this troubling yet topical phenomenon, while suicide missions are not always religiously motivated, when religion is involved, it is always Muslim. Why is this? Why is Islam the only religion that motivates its followers to commit suicide missions?
The surprising answer from the evolutionary psychological perspective is that Muslim suicide bombing may have nothing to do with Islam or the Koran (except for two lines in it). It may have nothing to do with the religion, politics, the culture, the race, the ethnicity, the language, or the region. As with everything else from this perspective, it may have a lot to do with sex, or, in this case, the absence of sex.
What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny. By allowing some men to monopolize all women and altogether excluding many men from reproductive opportunities, polygyny creates shortages of available women. If 50 percent of men have two wives each, then the other 50 percent don’t get any wives at all.
So polygyny increases competitive pressure on men, especially young men of low status. It therefore increases the likelihood that young men resort to violent means to gain access to mates. By doing so, they have little to lose and much to gain compared with men who already have wives. Across all societies, polygyny makes men violent, increasing crimes such as murder and rape, even after controlling for such obvious factors as economic development, economic inequality, population density, the level of democracy, and political factors in the region.
However, polygyny itself is not a sufficient cause of suicide bombing. Societies in sub-Saharan Africa and the Caribbean are much more polygynous than the Muslim nations in the Middle East and North Africa. And they do have very high levels of violence. Sub-Saharan Africa suffers from a long history of continuous civil wars—but not suicide bombings.
The other key ingredient is the promise of 72 virgins waiting in heaven for any martyr in Islam. The prospect of exclusive access to virgins may not be so appealing to anyone who has even one mate on earth, which strict monogamy virtually guarantees. However, the prospect is quite appealing to anyone who faces the bleak reality on earth of being a complete reproductive loser.
It is the combination of polygyny and the promise of a large harem of virgins in heaven that motivates many young Muslim men to commit suicide bombings. Consistent with this explanation, all studies of suicide bombers indicate that they are significantly younger than not only the Muslim population in general but other (nonsuicidal) members of their own extreme political organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. And nearly all suicide bombers are single.”
Thanks, EBF. But it’s okay as I have reached a point in my life at which the slings and arrows of small minds and ankle biters no longer irritate me. On those rare occasions when I even deign to acknowledge them, it is most often to chuckle at their ignorance.
As far as the Cleveland Indians are concerned, I have long been aware of the alleged origin of that name and have no problem whatsoever with it though baseball historians are in disagreement as to exactly how it became the nickname of the team and whether or not it is pejorative in nature. As a matter of fact, there are very few things that interest me less. I don’t even mind that the name Apache (my tribe) is used for a helicopter and a software company though I am mildly amused that it is not our name for ourselves.
What puzzles me a bit, however, is the fact that I did not mention any objection to the name “Indians.” I specifically mentioned “skin-color” names, “fierce logos” (perhaps I should have said “stupid” logos), and “hatchet chops.” Not a word about “Indians.”
Perhaps it might behoove some to read more carefully before opening mouth and placing ignorance on public display. Careful reading frequently enhances comprehension.
avg_guy,
Sorry I mentioned it.
“Shut them down permanently and lay everyone off, who needs 3M anyway. How dare they defacate in your water.”
I’ve noticed that Ann Coulter takes this same tactic when she disagrees with someone. For instance, when Elizabeth Edwards asked her to stop being disrespectful of the death of their son, her response was, “OK, I’ll just stop writing.” Sort of going overboard. It would be interesting to find out the psychology behind this kind of reaction. Are there any psychologists out there with insight into this?
I am no 3M apologist, but where do you get your info diamongrl? 3M has set aside more than $100 million for cleanup (I am sure it will require more though) and was not aware that the MPCA has taken responsibility.
Did anyone else read today’s Tribune? J. Richard Capka has been named as the federal highway official responsible for the rebuilding of the I-35W bridge.
In 2002, he was dismissed as chief executive of the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority because of problems with Boston’s “Big Dig” tunnel.
Two months later Bush nominiated him to head the Federal Highway Administration!
St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman will recommend a nearly 15 percent property tax levy increase today if a likely special session doesn’t deliver more aid to cities
I’d love to see a budget from Fruitcake city #2..god almighty how can anyone afford to live in that city…I bet’ch ya theres some money in there for those badly needed bike paths, park benches, and flower gardens.
Here comes that corporate hate. Yep kick out 3m and watch millions if not billions of dollars in tax revenue leave the state. Then all those poor folks who use to work there will have to get behind the illegal’s at the county welfare offices and hospitals.
Good thinking you Nutjob geniuses…honest to god
JonR - not surprising. The administration loves these appointments. The new president of the World Bank was a member of Enron’s advisory board. Now, I would have looked at that as a negative on his resume, but that’s just me.
I’ve noticed that Ann Coulter takes this same tactic when she disagrees with someone. For instance, when Elizabeth Edwards asked her to stop being disrespectful of the death of their son, her response was, “OK, I’ll just stop writing.” Sort of going overboard. It would be interesting to find out the psychology behind this kind of reaction. Are there any psychologists out there with insight into this?
Not a psychologist, but as a mother, I recognize this tactic all too well. It’s called, “all or nothing” and is designed to get one’s way in its entirety.
I mean really day after day, after day, after day its this steady steam of nonsensical nonsense being posted.
Is this an account of inner-city inbreeding or what causes usually normal people to have such screwed up logic. Not just on one subject here or there, but every subject.
“Here comes that corporate hate. Yep kick out 3m and watch millions if not billions of dollars in tax revenue leave the state.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe AG was the first to mention anything about getting rid of 3M. And he didn’t appear to be serious. I think all corporatists and non-corporatists alike would agree that corporate responsibility is important.
mark a - I know we’re often at odds on this issue. What do you think?
NADB, my “all or nothing” response as you call it was in reference to diamondgrl’s statement that 3M was polluting “all” of our water, (did you notice I capitalized ALL?) therefore I felt my response was as appropriate as her statement. As Susan has admonished me, perhaps it might behoove some to read more carefully before opening mouth.
How are you ever going to teach the benefits of diversity to city in our schools if you destroy the tax base? If you’re going to a “fool’s revolution” don’t put the hammer ahead of the sickle.
Oh by the way, what are those benefits again ?
Cliff I know we’re often at odds on this issue. What do you think?
ridiculousness - thanks. As a former nanny, I should have recognized that approach. “I can’t have a cookie? Fine, I’ll starve to death!”
Here comes that corporate hate. Yep kick out 3m and watch millions if not billions of dollars in tax revenue leave the state. Then all those poor folks who use to work there will have to get behind the illegal’s at the county welfare offices and hospitals.
I’ve really had to bite my lip and tie my fingers into knots, brimn, to avoid responding to you, but you finally found the right button to push.
The above-quoted statement so totally misses the facts and the history of both 3M and Minnesota that it is almost laughable if it weren’t so asinine.
3M has been here when Minnesota was rated the highest taxing state in the country. No one at 3M has ever suggested that they would move if tax rates goes higher.
The corporate types at 3M and General Mills and the other large companies here know that high taxation rates can, and usually mean, that the infrastructure is better here than in other states.
If high taxes were enough to drive businesses out, then 3M would have to change its name to AMM — for Alaska Mining and Manufacturing, because not only does Alaska have a low taxing rate, but it has a hefty tax refund to all citizens every year.
It’s time that the Minnesota Tax League’s shills found another hobby horse… that one is DOA.
As a former nanny, I should have recognized that approach. “I can’t have a cookie? Fine, I’ll starve to death!”
EXACTLY!!!!!
AG - I did notice that, but I don’t believe DG really meant “all”. She may have been overgeneralizing, but I don’t think it was intentional.
S.C., FYI I also think the name Redskins is in poor taste, and I admit I don’t know anything about the tomahawk chop or why it might be offensive to Indians. However I do think there are many Indian nicknames and logo’s that have been done tastefully. However, since I am not a Native American (whatever that misnomer means because I was born here also) I’ve been told my opinion on the issue does not matter.
NADB, that is correct. However, the problem is becoming more widespread since the chemical has been found in fish in Lake Calhoun and in the drinking water in the Brainard area. And the testing for other areas is not complete. I have to wonder how much water in our state alone has been affected. Also, Minnesota is not the only state where 3M has polluted.
I wonder what the response here will be when/if they find that the majority of our water is contaminated. How about avg_guy? How will you feel about it when it affects you personally?
Cure For The Sexual Headache
A husband emerged from the bathroom naked and was climbing into bed when his wife complained, as usual,
“I have a headache”
“Perfect,” her husband said.
“I was just in the bathroom powdering my penis with aspirin. You can take it orally or as a suppository, it’s up to you.”
Cure For The Sexual Headache
A husband emerged from the bathroom naked and was climbing into bed when his wife complained, as usual,
“I have a headache”
“Perfect,” her husband said.
“I was just in the bathroom powdering my weiner with aspirin. You can take it orally or as a suppository, it’s up to you.”
“Is this an account of inner-city inbreeding or what causes usually normal people to have such screwed up logic. Not just on one subject here or there, but every subject.”
brimm, if everyone has a different opinion than you, perhaps it’s time to look in the mirror. And by the way, I didn’t grow up anywhere near a big city.
Brimn2001, this ones for you….
St. Paul Minnesota Student Letter
Hello,
My name be Eboneesha, an African-American girl who just got an award for being the best speler in class. I got 67% on the speling test and 30 points for being black, 5 points for not bringing drugs into class, 5 points for not bringing guns into class, and 5 points for not getting pregnut during the cemester. It hard to beat a score of 120%.
The white dude who sit next to me is McGee from the Bronx. He got a 94% on the test but no extra points on account of he have the same skin color as the opressirs of 150 years ago.
Granny axed me to thank all Democrafts and Liberals for suporting afermative action. You showing the way to be true equality.
I gwine be gittin in medical skool nex an mabe I be yo doctor.
Yo fren,
Eboneesha
How did this blog deteriorate to such hate-filled, bigoted, prejudiced writings?
Hi, all,
Susan, my dad - all white and no prof - knew more about the American Indian tribes than any other person I’ve ever met. He encouraged me to read Elliot Arnold’s book “Blood Brother” about Cochise and Tom Jeffords, as well as others (e.g., Hoebel, Dee) depicting life here before the white man came and what the white man did to the Indians.
Anyway - and please allow for my spelling and correct as need be - this book mentions the Chiricahua, the Mescalero, the White Mountain, the Mimbreño, and other bands. I remember that Pop used to say that Cochise and Geronimo (Gokyila?) were in his opinion among the greatest field generals of all time.
Anyway, you said, “the name Apache (my tribe) is used for a helicopter and a software company though I am mildly amused that it is not our name for ourselves.” What is that name? Thanks.
“mark a - I know we’re often at odds on this issue. What do you think?”
NADB,
We’ve been at odds at times regarding the problems coporations cause. Mostly I see corporations as a net good for our community. Mpls and STP are nice places to live because of them not inspite of them. 3M has a very good reputation and Im sure they will clean up the river as they should. If it costs them millions they should pay all of it. Im not in favor of the state cleaning up corporate messes from mistakes they’ve made. The point I debate with you I feel is based on how atractive should we make MN to corporations and how important are they to our quality of life. 3Ms chemical spill though should be taken care of by 3M and we should give them every opportunity to clean it up before we freak out and try to bring them down. Destroying their reputation isnt in the long term best interests of the state.
“How did this blog deteriorate to such hate-filled, bigoted, prejudiced writings?”
WHAT YOU TALKIN ABOUT WILLIS?
DG: I think everyone’s bored because someone at the StarTribune forgot to look after this blog in KK’s absence. I don’t think tomriggs is advocating the joke letter he printed. It may have other intentions, although it is pretty offensive. There can be a fine line between humor and offense.
On another note: I always think of Native Americans when white people start whining about how immigrants aren’t “assimilating”. The pilgrims didn’t exactly assimilate, did they?
“I have to wonder how much water in our state alone has been affected. Also, Minnesota is not the only state where 3M has polluted.”
First of all we need to figure out if it was intentional or not. Do we know that? Was there a cover up?
Second, the benefits 3M brings to the state far out way and chemical spill they are dealing with now. Take a look at the list of 40,000 products and tell me they are a burden.
EBF says;”So, AG, any bets on tomorrow’s promised “favorite article?””
From the looks of todays’s blog she’s probably going to write an article on how she’s never going on vacation again or on the deterioration of the American Blog!
3M was warned by one of their own several years ago about the risks of these chemicals in the ground and water. It isn’t just the river that has been contaminated.
mark a says:
“Take a look at the list of 40,000 products and tell me they are a burden.”
Can you say that 3M’s products are more important than the health and lives of people? These chemicals are know to cause liver damage in monkeys, thyroid problems and who knows what else? If 3M kills off the population there won’t be a need for Post It Notes.
Former Carrier. Thanks for your post. I am a White Mountain Apache who was born in Cibecue (on the traditional side of the Rez) when the Rez was still called the Fort Apache Indian Reservation. It is now the White Mountain Reservation. I left the Rez shortly after my “na-ih-es” (a four-day religio-cultural ceremony associated with menarche) and went to live with a Mexican family in Tucson. My first two languages were a dialect of Athapascan and Spanish. Our word for us is “N’de” which means “the people.” Oh, you mentioned Geronimo and his Apache name. It is Goyathlay and means “he who yawns.” He wasn’t a chief, by the way. In case you are wondering why I occasionally post on a Minneapolis blog, it is because I went to grad school at the U of MN and remember fondly those years in MN. Well, not necessarily the winters. :-)
AG: In spite of its historical inaccuracy, the word “Indian” when used in a general sense, is just fine with me though it would be presumptuous of me to speak for others. And I recognize the name “Apache” due to common usage though it is a Zuni word meaning “the enemy.” When I am among my people and speaking my first language, I use our word, “N’de,” which means “the people.”
I have no problem with your expressing your opinions about Indians. Or anyone else for that matter. My objection to your 10:58 post was your presumptuousness in stating that I was talking about a subject about which I knew nothing when in fact I did not even mention that subject.
I think I’ll log off for the day. I feel I am spinning out of control. See Ya.
“Can you say that 3M’s products are more important than the health and lives of people?”
Do you know how many 3M products save lives? The dont just make scotch tape and post it notes you know. 3M isnt EVIL. Boo!! But all of a sudden everyone wants to destroy one of the pillars of our local economy.
They are a good company and being run by humans make mistakes. Do you ever put fertilizer on your lawn?
“These chemicals are know to cause liver damage in monkeys”
Oh come on dgrl, how many people in Minnesota even have monkeys?
The point is……3M has to make some hard decisions……if they continue to manufacture products for which the by-products are pollutants, 3M will have to find a way to store those contaminants so that the environment is not polluted. Obviously, they have to clean up the existing pollution, however, I think that this needs to be simultaneous effort to prevent futher contamination.
Whether or not 3M is EVIL is beside the point. If these chemicals are found to cause illnesses or are indeed life threatening, 3M will have a much larger problem on their hands in terms of additional and larger lawsuits that will inevitably put them out of business.
DG: I agree with you. 3M has created some wonderful products (my world would be a much different place without sticky notes), but none are more important than the health and lives of the communities in which 3M operates.
Many of their chemicals are known carcinogens. Much is still unknown about exactly how dangerous they are, but one would think they would err on the side of safety. I’ll gladly give up the convenience of non-stick cookware if it prevents a cancer diagnosis somewhere else.
NADB, yep, I think you are right. Some of our dear bloggers are bored to tears!
Hi, all,
Thank you, Susan! Though Goyathlay was no chief, Pop used to tell me that he and some of his men led the U S Army on a chase all over the Southwest, and the Army never did capture him because he was too smart for them. He finally surrendered and, if I recall correctly, was imprisoned in Florida or some such place totally unlike Arizona and very hard on his physical health. I’ll have to go do some new surfing.
I don’t blame you for not liking Minnesota winters! There isn’t much to like.
NADB,
Beyond the health and life issue is the value of properties in these areas and now a reluctance for anyone to establish new business in these areas. 3M doesn’t support the entire state or even the metro area. These cities need businesses to survive.
““These chemicals are know to cause liver damage in monkeys”
Oh come on dgrl, how many people in Minnesota even have monkeys?”
I think we’re all getting loopy without a focused topic. How ever will we adjust to KK’s return? Of course, there’s a 99% chance that it won’t make a difference…
Thanks for the laugh NADB!
I kind of like the variety of topics that have been discussed over the past few days though.
Hi, all,
I have mixed thoughts and feelings about 3M, partly because they make the best glues and abrasives out there, and partly because they threatened to sue the Highway Department once because we decided not to use of of their products on one of our jobs.
“if they continue to manufacture products for which the by-products are pollutants, 3M will have to find a way to store those contaminants so that the environment is not polluted.”
Obviously. I totally agree. And Im sure they will.
“I’ll gladly give up the convenience of non-stick cookware if it prevents a cancer diagnosis somewhere else.”
I think you may be selling 3M a bit short. They make a lot more than sticky notes and cookware. Go to there website and look at the medical and safety products they produce and tell me they only pollute and cause cancer. Have you ever been in an operating room? Just a few 3M products in there(besides tape). Reality is they save more lives than they end. But its just another easy corporate target I guess to sling mud at.
Another environmental issue: the disposal of pharmaceuticals. Hospitals tend to use incinerators, but most households flush old medications or pour them down the drain. Water treatment plants aren’t equipped to handle chemicals from drugs or personal care products, so they end up in drinking water, rivers, lakes and streams. Throwing them in the garbage heightens the risk that teenagers will pull them out and abuse them (a growing trend). Some communities are developing drop off sites, but most don’t have that option. The best way to dispose of them is to ground them up, add them to cat litter or coffee grounds, then throw them away.
The EPA is trying to get drug companies to reduce the amount of time required for a drug to break down in the environment. Meanwhile, we’ll have to keep drinking water laced with antidepressants while watching the mutated frogs on these warm summer nights. We are one heavily medicated country.
I don’t think anyone is “selling 3M short”. But if they file bankruptcy and go out of business due to their own short-sightedness and greed, so be it. The company has clearly been irresponsible about dumping contaminants so could affect the life of every human being in the area.
mark a - I don’t sell them short at all. I agree they manufacture a lot of important products. But we also have to be careful not to give them a free pass because of that. They may be helping to save lives on one end of the manufacturing line, but if they end up endangering them on the other end, it’s all a wash. A lot of their most toxic chemicals are used in convenience products like non-stick cookware or Scotchgard. I just meant those items are an easy trade-off for me. I think we mostly agree on this topic, actually.
“But if they file bankruptcy and go out of business due to their own short-sightedness and greed, so be it.”
Not likely. I think some people are actually hoping for that since they are just another piece of the giant monolyth that is the CORPORATION.
” I think we mostly agree on this topic, actually.”
I think we do too. I said I think they should have to take responsibility, and Im sure they will. They are a giant company and are going to make mistakes. But does 3M have a dark history of corporate greed? Not that Ive ever heard of. In fact its my understanding they are pretty well respected. So if it is really a wash, then lets give them time to clean up their mess, investigate what the problems are before we expect them to just fall on their sword because some one says so. Let due process take it course.
FC,
Shortly after the bridge collapsed, you posted a message indicating your experiences as an MNDOT employee and what you thought was wrong with the MNDOT internal culture.
I have a suggestion for you. As a former MNDOT employee, why don’t you FAX a letter to Congressman James Oberstar (DEM-MN) detailing your experiences, etc? Oberstar is going to hold hearings on this disaster and I’m sure he would welcome your input.
You just might be able to make a difference.
“Do you know how many 3M products save lives? The dont just make scotch tape and post it notes you know. 3M isnt EVIL. Boo!! But all of a sudden everyone wants to destroy one of the pillars of our local economy.”
PS. Let me just give you a little inside information I’ve heard. Not only does 3m provided jobs and donate dollars to local charities, there headquarters is a bastion of diversity. They employee people of every race and religious background from around the world.
Its things the Michael Moore types don’t look at when they start in with their goofball statements that get all the Nutjobs worked up. Some of those NutJobs are on the St.Paul city council. And how many plants/offices does 3M have in St.Paul now ? ONE
That’s why St.Paul has to raise property taxes every other day.
Yes folks mark this on your calendar. Me and that other guy agree on something. Pretty special day !
Mr. Editor, we were promised an essay on “the fatal flaw of multiculturalism”!
“…That’s why St.Paul has to raise property taxes every other day…”
Wrong! St. Paul, like so many other cities, is a victim of Pawlenty’s no-new-taxes/anti-government agenda.
St. Paul, as other cities, has been victimized by draconian cuts in the LGA program which provided additional revenues to the cities. Pawlenty brags about “no new taxes” by reducing state aid to the cities and school districts. The cities and school districts, in turn, have to increase property taxes to cover the drop in revenues.
Thus, the state doesn’t raise taxes, but the cities are forced to raise taxes.
The end result is that while the state isn’t raising taxes, the lower government entities are to cover the shortfalls.
By the way, Brimn2001, please get a grammar book. Your postings are becoming increasingly difficult to decipher.
Finally, yesterday I asked you to give us specific examples of government employees that don’t work. You still haven’t replied.
“Thus, the state doesn’t raise taxes, but the cities are forced to raise taxes.”
Samething at the federal level. We go to war. the ruling elite hasn’t the guts to ask for sacifices from the population and instead they cut taxes. which inturn cuts the amount that goes back to the states in federal funding for federal programs. the states want/need to continue these federal and state programs so they are forced to find the funds from the local population and spread the limited local funds more broadly to cover all programs.
Have you heard that the federal government is excelerating logging on public lands in the Northwest?
Here’s my spin on that. And I think its a good thing due to the wild fires ravaging good timber stock.
We have a housing bust. people lose jobs and the economy starts to feel the pinch. Costs of wood products start to drop slowly, maybe to slow. We then accelerate the logging on public lands (logging on private lands has not slowed much over the years) creating well needed jobs that trickle down through other aspects of the economy. We then creat a wood product glut further driving down prices. the houseing/construction markets can now pick up building supplies at a lower cost which then creates housing that is once again affordable to the middle and lower middle classes which takes inflationary pressure off the economy and interest rates start dropping.
what do you think? sound good? any loop holes?
Just a thought.
Brimn says:
“PS. Let me just give you a little inside information I’ve heard. Not only does 3m provided jobs and donate dollars to local charities, there headquarters is a bastion of diversity. They employee people of every race and religious background from around the world”
I suppose this outweighs the possibility of your children or grandchildren being born with birth defects, your spouse or significant other or close relative or friend contracting cancer and an overall unhealthy population. Perhaps you could encourage 3M to start giving more to charities; they may need in the not too distant future.
“…the ruling elite hasn’t the guts to ask for sacifices from the population and instead they cut taxes…”
With the biggest tax cuts going to the already rich.
“…Have you heard that the federal government is excelerating logging on public lands in the Northwest?…”
We have a similar situation in MN. The blowdown area in the Northeast Angle had millions of dollars worth of valuable timber lying on the ground after the storm. But instead of allowing companies to harvest the timber, it has been left to rot and create the potential for catastrophic fires.
Furthermore, at the bottom of Lake Superior is millions of dollars of timber that sunk during transport. Much of this timber is at least one hundred years old and would be very valuable for interior walls, furniture and even the making of string instruments. But the timber cannot be harvested because that might disturb the lake bottom.
LLiberals are wrong in their view on logging, just as they are in their demand to allow gay men who are aroused sexually by males to supervise young Boy Scouts. This organization should be comprised strictly between boys and leaders who have abosultely no chance of a sexual attraction, and males who are questionable in this area should not be put in an authoritative position while camping.
The Boy Scouts are one of the best hopes we have of turning out decent young men, especially with all the negative video games, gangs, gangsta rap, etc. and we need to fund this group and support it.
Getting back to logging, I saw a good bumper sticker the other day which said:
“Don’t like logging?, try using plastic toilet paper”
dare2sayit,
Really? Shall we also forbid a man to coach a high school girls basketball team? How about a woman coaching a high school boys basketball team? How about all those women who are den mothers for the Cub Scouts?
“…The Boy Scouts are one of the best hopes we have of turning out decent young men…”
The Boy Scouts are teaching bigotry, homophobia and intolerance…typical Republican “family values.”
JonR,
Men teaching girls basketball, etc. don’t spend nights alone with them in tents.
Camping, no pun intended, is not the issue.
The real issue is gay men mentoring Scouts in any venue. You know that as well as I do.
By the way, if a gay Scout Master agreed not to go on that camping trip, could he be a Scout Master? You might agree, but I would wager that the majority of the Bible Thumpers would still have a hissy fit.
Hi, all,
JonR, thanks for the note and suggestion. You’re right, I might just help make a difference. I have kept copies oif many of my posts to this blog, and I think my machine has fax capability. (”Just the fax, Ma’am.”)
On a totally different tack, someone told me once that only a Southerner knows the difference between a conniption and a hissy fit. Any Southerners here?
Hi, all,
FYI - I did some googling (”google” is a verb now, may heaven help us), and found out nothing exact or definite, but I get the impression that a conniption is any kind of emotional outburst, and a hissy fit is definitely an outburst of anger.
That’s the way it is with slang.
While I’m thinking of it, would anyone care to offer definitions of bigotry, intolerance, and homophobia? I think we all sort of kind of have an idea what the terms mean, but I would like to see some specific definitions. One of my reasons for asking is that many English words have many synonyms, but all have slightly different shades of meaning and connotation.
““…That’s why St.Paul has to raise property taxes every other day…”
Wrong! St. Paul, like so many other cities, is a victim of Pawlenty’s no-new-taxes/anti-government agenda.”
Wrong again! St. Paul, like so many other cities, cannot control their spending. Over 50% of their income already comes from the state, sounds to me like they get a lot of it already. It’s time cites like St. Paul and every other city realizes that if they want the niceties along withe the necessities they are going to have to pay for it out of their own pockets, not from the state coffers.
“John Edwards’ weeklong Iowa bus tour stumbled out of the starting gate Monday as dozens of voters waited outside in the heat for more than an hour for the presidential candidate to appear at his Des Moines headquarters.”
He was doing his hair..O.C.D. ? Was sittin’ there combing and combing and starring and combing and couldn’t walk away.
diamondgrl says: “I suppose this outweighs the possibility of your children or grandchildren being born with birth defects, your spouse or significant other or close relative or friend contracting cancer and an overall unhealthy population. Perhaps you could encourage 3M to start giving more to charities; they may need in the not too distant future.”
I detect another Fruitcake in the room. Oh ya I see those deformed kids walkin’ around all the 3m sites all the time. Their heads the size of watermelons, and all displaying both human sex organs.
GIVE ME A BREAK YOU NUTJOB !!!!!!
Maybe you grew up eating dirt by a 3M site… I dont know but I’m guessing,Deformed your brain into a little “MOVEon’er”
The Boy Scouts are one of the best hopes we have of turning out decent young men…
But apparently only if those young men are also straight theists. Then again, you never did give a rat’s ass about gay youth or atheists, did you, d2si?
I’m getting the impression that brimn is what? around 12 years old?
“the houseing/construction markets can now pick up building supplies at a lower cost which then creates housing that is once again affordable to the middle and lower middle classes which takes inflationary pressure off the economy and interest rates start dropping.”
My only thought is its the access to capital(Either too much or too little) that hurts the housing market, not the cost of comodities like wood or copper. Sure they play a part but only a very small part. Was wood that expensive before? Atleast it wasnt the reason houses were gaining double digit returns for years on end. Any decrease in the cost of lumber wouldnt be enough to lower the cost of new construction to a point where it would effect int rates. Inflation isnt going to be correlated to the lumber industry. Int rates are going to keep going up as long as the fed continues to flood the market with liquidity to solve the credit crunch. More cash in the system means higher int rates because the dollar looses value. You could strip the earth of all the trees in existance and it wouldnt effect int rates.
“The Boy Scouts are one of the best hopes we have of turning out decent young men…
But apparently only if those young men are also straight theists. Then again, you never did give a rat’s ass about gay youth or atheists, did you, d2si?”
Yes EBF, the Boyscouts are a private institution interested in upbring boys in a religious way, no surprise there. As far as not wanting gay scouts I’m not so sure. After all how many kids at a young age even know they are homosexual or not? I think their aversion is to gay scoutmasters and other leaders. Correct?
I don’t think the housing issue today is because of the high cost of housing. What’s going on is a typical cyclical supply and demand issue and it’s happened before and will happen again. Housing projects don’t go up overnight, there land to purchase, houses to build, permits, etc, etc. During peak housing demands people invest in new housing, which might take several years to complete considering they have to find land, get permits, builders and what not, especially for whole new developments. A few years ago it was a sellers market because there was a shortage of available houses for sale so people invested in building new developments. Well guess what, supply finally caught up to demand and has now surpassed it. That’s why you see new developments still going up, it’s been a long process and they are not going to stop half way through. Sooner or later it will swing the other way again, just watch.
“A few years ago it was a sellers market because there was a shortage of available houses for sale so people invested in building new developments.”
There was a shortage of supply because every schmo could get a loan, and a huge one at that. Wall street was hungry for high yield mortgage securities and there was plenty of capital to be lent out. It was like wall street forgot about a little thing called risk. When the defaults started, the demand for high yield mortgage securities dried up capping the available capital to lend and demand died. People who couldnt afford payments and people with seconds are trying to get out now and supply is way up.
Your point about the slow moving nature of new construction is right on. It moves in the several month to years range and the real estate market can change on a dime.
D2sit,
When I was a boyscout, our leaders didn’t sleep in tents WITH us. The same was true when I was at the YMCA Camps. They slept in separate tents or rooms. Either way, your response to JonR’s comment about women coaches and male coaches on straight teams holds no water. Being attracted to men does not mean one is attracted to boys, am I right JonR? EBF? It’s a completely different issue, regardless of orientation.
Also, as I said in an earlier post, the YMCA (for one example) is just as good if not better (in my opinion) at teaching character and developing strong, positive young men and women.
Your knee jerk assumption that all gay men are out for all young boys jumps to incorrect conclusions. Are you, as a presumably straight man, out for all young girls? Come on.
“I don’t think the housing issue today is because of the high cost of housing.”
When people cant get access to enough cheap money to afford the high prices, cost is a certainly an issue.
Yes EBF, the Boyscouts are a private institution interested in upbring boys in a religious way, no surprise there.
And you should have noted above that I support their right to discriminate.
My comment was directed at d2si. Apparently, he doesn’t care about gay and atheist youth. His lack of concern doesn’t mean that gay and atheist youth should be ignored; on the contrary, shouldn’t they have opportunities to participate in organizations that will help them become “decent young men,” too? What would d2si recommend for our gay and/or atheist boys? My guess is “reparative therapy and religious boarding schools” because d2si, like far too many conservatives, just wants to spew inflammatory rhetoric instead of coming up with meaningful solutions.
As far as not wanting gay scouts I’m not so sure. After all how many kids at a young age even know they are homosexual or not? I think their aversion is to gay scoutmasters and other leaders. Correct?
Their aversion also extends to their members. It is not only Scout masters who are supposed to be heterosexual theists. Members have been removed, or at best made to feel very unwelcome, if they expressed homosexual and/or atheist feelings.
As for kids knowing they’re homosexual, I remember being attracted to the other boys in my kindergarten class! I didn’t know that meant I was gay; that realization didn’t come until college. But a boy need not know that his same-sex attractions make him gay; if the Scouts find out about his feelings for members of his own gender, they can kick him out anyway.
(For those of you concerned that I was attracted to kindergartners, note that I was also a kindergartner at the time. My attraction to males grew as I did in that I found myself attracted to males my age or older. As an adult, I am not, and never have been, sexually attracted to children.)
Being attracted to men does not mean one is attracted to boys, am I right JonR? EBF? It’s a completely different issue, regardless of orientation.
Exactly. Homosexuality and pedophilia are completely different things. I doubt most heterosexuals would appreciate a presumption of pedophilia in the way it seems to be a matter of course for GLBT people.
Well guess what, supply finally caught up to demand and has now surpassed it. That’s why you see new developments still going up, it’s been a long process and they are not going to stop half way through. Sooner or later it will swing the other way again, just watch.
I live in a nice southeast Minneapolis neighborhood of “starter homes” built anywhere from 1900-1950. A realtor who knows the area well frequently leaves fliers showing houses he’s sold in the area. The one I got this morning featured a house just across the alley from me. This house is, quite literally, a box. It has only 628 square feet (excluding the basement, which wasn’t specified as either finished or unfinished, so I interpret that as unfinished) – less than half the size of my house (even without the finished basement) – and a tiny one-car garage that couldn’t hold any type of today’s super-sized vehicles. Its lot seems large, but I think that’s because the house is so small.
I’ve been in my house for over 10 years. I bought it for $89K; today its value for property taxes is $205K (which means it’s probably worth more). Guess what that realtor got for the box across the alley? $175K!! That’s right, one hundred seventy five thousand dollars. Unbelievable!
Agree that there is no correlation between homosexual orientation and pedophilia. However, despite the countervailing examples cited above, isn’t there a positive correlation between male sex and pedophilia? I don’t know the answer to this question, which could be addressed empirically, but in the meantime it seems to me reasonable for parents to maintain a certain level of suspicion (paranoia if you like) about males (of any orientation).
I heard part of an interview on “Fresh Air with Terry Gross” with a Catholic priest of homosexual orientation about a new policy discouraging the ordination of homosexuals. This policy is certainly none of my business, since I am not Catholic, but I did meet a few priests who were probably or at least possibly homosexuals who seemed to me to be doing a good job (although again, it’s not for me to say). I do not wish to criticize the policy if it is theologically motivated (theology is none of my business) but it appears possible that the policy could be due to an empirically incorrect assumption about a presumed correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia, in which case I would simply point out that the policy is based on an error.
. However, despite the countervailing examples cited above, isn’t there a positive correlation between male sex and pedophilia? I don’t know the answer to this question, which could be addressed empirically, but in the meantime it seems to me reasonable for parents to maintain a certain level of suspicion (paranoia if you like) about males (of any orientation).
If by “male sex” you mean that men are more likely to be pedophiles, no matter WHAT their orientation, you’d be correct.
However, it is also a fact that the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual.
Isn’t there a positive correlation between male sex and pedophilia?
No, there is not. The statistic I remember seeing is that something like 98% of all cases of adults sexually abusing children involve men abusing girls. The pedophilia-homosexual “correlation” is a myth used by homophobes to justify discrimination.
…a new policy discouraging the ordination of homosexuals.
This policy is, in large part, a reaction to the priest sexual abuse scandal (for which the Catholic Church seems very reluctant to accept responsibility). Should the Catholic Church be allowed to discriminate against GLBT people? Certainly. It is a private institution.
What’s sad about this situation — beyond the horrors of the lives destroyed by the abuse — is that celibate gay men who are doing a good job and have done nothing wrong are being punished along with the guilty in a dragnet-like sweep. I wonder how many straight people would tolerate being punished for guilt by association.
“Guess what that realtor got for the box across the alley? $175K!! That’s right, one hundred seventy five thousand dollars. Unbelievable!”
When capital is cheap and easy to get, prices are going to go up. That house now isnt worth $175k anymore if he was going to try and sell it.
I expressed myself poorly and I apologize. I do NOT believe that there is any correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. I wasn’t trying to imply that there is any correlation between these homosexuality and pedophilia, but I am sorry if it came out that way.
What I was TRYING to say is exactly what ridiculousness guessed that I meant: men are more likely to be pedophiles than women. I also thank ridiculousness for pointing out that the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual.
“When people cant get access to enough cheap money to afford the high prices, cost is a certainly an issue.”
There is always going to be people who can’t afford a house, that’s why there are apartments. I never understood the phrase “affordable housing”. Affordable for who? I’d like to live in a gated community too, should someone subsidize me?
I apologize for the following mistake in my apology: the word “these” was accidentally left in the second sentence and should have been removed.
“…There is always going to be people who can’t afford a house, that’s why there are apartments…”
There was a time when renting an apartment was a cheaper alternative to buying a home. That is no longer the case. A monthly rental payment can easily approach, if not exceed, a mortgage payment.
I manage the survey departmant of small (25-30 employees)Engineering company and have seen a dramatic drop in subdivision development over the past year. when the housing glut corrects its self there will be a shortage of new lots for builders to by for new houses.
will this give the realestate market a boost and will existing home prices that have been dropping recoup lost revenue (is revenue the right word)?
Thanks for the postings on my logging/housing post.
When capital is cheap and easy to get, prices are going to go up. That house now isnt worth $175k anymore if he was going to try and sell it.
But this house just sold for $175K. I don’t know when the closing was, but I would assume within the last month. So you’re saying the new owner now wouldn’t get the same $175K today for which s/he bought the house within the last month?
“But instead of allowing companies to harvest the timber, it has been left to rot and create the potential for catastrophic fires.”
The same is true In the Northwest. The Biscuit fire in southwestern oregon burnned so fast and hot that it literally sanitized the soil of all organic organisms. the trees were left standing and kiln dried by the intense heat. Yet the environmintalists have block or attempted to block all salvage logging ciyying the damage that could be done by heavy equiptment during logging.
They salvaging lost logs at the bottom of the columbia river and making quite a mint.
“So you’re saying the new owner now wouldn’t get the same $175K today for which s/he bought the house within the last month?”
Value is whatever the seller can get for it. Do you think they would be able to get the same ammount for it today? How big is the lot? Where is it located? I making some assumptions but it sounds like a situation where someone over paid.
“There was a time when renting an apartment was a cheaper alternative to buying a home. That is no longer the case.”
There are a lot of variables in this equation. Would you like to own a home you overpaid for and now may go into default on? Id rather own the apt and pay rent in that situation. Many times Apts are more economical solutions. A lot more goes into it than the cost of rent. In a depreciating environment if I was a short term owner like a person only living in a city for a few years, renting is a much better idea. If you are going to lose all your mortgage fees, pay a real estate agent a fee to sell the house when you go and pay taxes and int on a loan, renting will save you thousands of dollars.
“will this give the realestate market a boost and will existing home prices that have been dropping recoup lost revenue (is revenue the right word)?”
We have too many unused homes in the developing suburbs (the drawn shade syndrom). Its a question of innersia(sp?). With the boom came people willing to bet on the length of time it would last. The most recent developments are the ones that miscalculated on timing. As the metro area grows, those developments will eventually fill up until at a certain point we reach equilibrium again and you see demand outpace supply. Thats years off, but yes values will go up again eventually.
I apologize for the following mistake in my apology: the word “these” was accidentally left in the second sentence and should have been removed.
Next, you’ll be apologizing for apologizing for the apology…. :)
feel free to cut/paste my generic apology posted on monday.
regarding logging practices-
A woman from Los Angeles, who was a tree hugger and an anti-hunter,
purchased a piece of timberland, near Grants Pass, OR. There was a large
tree on one of the highest points in the tract. She wanted a good view of
the natural splendor of her land so she started to climb the big tree.
As she neared the top she encountered a spotted owl that attacked her. In
her haste to escape, the woman slid down the tree to the ground and got
many splinters in her crotch. In considerable pain, she hurried to the
nearest doctor. She told him she was an environmentalist and an anti-hunter
and how she came to get all the splinters.
The doctor listened to her story with great patience and then told her to
go into the examining room and he would see if he could help her. She sat
and waited three hours before the doctor reappeared.
The angry woman demanded, “What took you so long?”
He smiled and then told her, “Well, I had to get permits from the
Environmental Protection Agency, the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management before I could remove old-growth timber from a recreational area I’m sorry, but they turned me down.”
tomriggs
Thanks for your posts! You bring a little needed levity to this board.
LOL
Everyone looks at me like I have three heads because I still rent. Payments may be the same or cheaper than rent in some places, but a 20% down payment is still a hurdle for a lot of people and necessary if you want to keep those payments low. I think that’s why mortgages got so creative and led people to borrow more than they could handle.
I’m single, middle-aged, and well aware of the various benefits of owning. I make an adequate living and have a decent emergency fund and retirement savings plan, but not an extra $40,000 to throw at a condo/townhome/house that I could end up losing if I lost my income for any reason. Being single, there’s no backup income.
Besides, as a liberal, I’m pretty sure Bush/Cheney would categorize me as an “enemy combatant” and use the opportunity to seize my property anyway.
Interesting side note: the panic of 1929 was prefaced by an economic culture much like the one we have today. People were borrowing beyond their means in order to invest in the stock market (today it’s real estate), the government and banks were telling people everything was just great, the markets were having record highs, then the bottom dropped out.
Hey isn’t anybody going to ask for my expertise on a subject like they do Mark a. I can give my expertise on the brains of the Fruitcakes, Nutjobs and Goofballs and the s^&% they post on this blog. I’m a P.H.D. on that s&^%
Brimn2001,
I’d like your expertise on the proper way of picking the corn out of my s.h.i.t. this is something you must have some background in.
Sometimes when I try to envision what Mark a must look at I see the banker from the “Beverley Hillbillies”. Jeb Clampett been in your bank yet today Mark a ?
brimn2001,
I’m waiting for instructions, you old corn picker you.
No expert on that..Guys down at the sewage plant most do that. But good idea as a possible source of energy. Kind of an ethanol extract.
I do know its hard to hirer any Americans to do this that job. This might be the one case where a “migrate” might step in and do that for ya.
good luck
“been in your bank yet today Mark a”
Im closing deals right and left today. Its wonderful to have a carear
“Hey isn’t anybody going to ask for my expertise on a subject like they do Mark a.”
When chronic masturbation comes up as a topic, Im sure you’re expertise will come in ‘handy’. Until then let the adults handle the complicated subjects.
Though that might be a prevalent problem this time of year, being that corn on the cob is hot item. Maybe with each dozen bought a bag could be provide to collect the solid corn ethanol and we could turn that bag in for extraction at a locale Wacky G.W. outlet.
Your thoughts Mark a. You know allot of s^%$ , right up your alley
heh, heh, heh, chronic masturbation, heh, heh, heh, he said chronic.
I use “The Stranger” method myself……you?
hangin with Rosie Palm and the Fistine sisters. Oh Yeah!!!
Or is it Rosie Palms and her sisters Fistella and Wristine
Value is whatever the seller can get for it.
The seller just got $175K.
Do you think they would be able to get the same ammount for it today?
Why couldn’t they if that’s what they just paid?
How big is the lot? Where is it located?
Average size for southeast Minneapolis.
I making some assumptions but it sounds like a situation where someone over paid.
That was my reaction, too. But then I had to wonder –which is probably what this realtor was counting on – if he could get $175K for that box, what could he get for my house? Probably a lot more than the $205K tax evaluation price! (But I’m not interested in selling right now, so that realtor is out of luck with me – for the time being, anyway!)
Anyone know the threshold for being removed from this blog? Not that anyone seems to be approaching it. Except maybe me.
if brimn2001 hasen’t reached the threshold yet it must be out beyond the horizon.
My theory is that brimn2001 is a Kersten relative, and therefore untouchable. No other way to explain it, really.
I think they’re doing it.
You mean like nonsensical leftist Fruitcake,Nutjob BS posts getting you kicked off the blog ?
I’d just come back on as Mark b..OOPS
“You mean like nonsensical leftist Fruitcake,Nutjob BS posts getting you kicked off the blog ?”
Yeah, that and Voting for a military troop surge in Iraq and then claiming it a failure before all the troops can even get there.
“I use “The Stranger” method myself……you?”
Luckily Brimn, my wife and I are still attracted to each other.
“Why couldn’t they if that’s what they just paid?”
You said, it. THEY. Not me or you or anyone else. THEY. Maybe THEY are foolish with there money?
“I’d just come back on as Mark b..OOPS”
Scooby and shaggy could have solved theat mystery Brimn.
At least Brimn isn’t discriminating. He/she hates everyone equally!
Yep I went to bank and bought my house on an A.M.R. when it was 1. something. That evil banker made me borrow extra Cash so I could add on a couple of garages for the new cars I bought and a landscaping job to hold my new boat and trailer.
Now I’m all crying on the Nightly News because I cant pay my bills. At least I got the media to focus on that evil banker and not on how DUMB I AM.
“At least Brimn isn’t discriminating. He/she hates everyone equally!”
See that KK!! Brimn is a model of diversity, just like the catholic church and the Boy Scouts.
It is interesting to hear about people who had no trouble affording their mortgages, refinanced, and now have trouble. One thing people never add to the conversation is that the refinance was to take equity out of their home. Many had a big boat or cabin in mind and needed that low rate to make the payments work. It selective amnesia and self dillusion that is the problem here, not bankers. Im still waiting for the news and AG Swanson to show me an example of a banker who falsified loan docs.
Turn on NPR, they’re talking about this right now. Finally some blame for greedy american borrowers.
EBF,
You may want to reaquaint yourself with the housing market. Most 1 and 2 bedroom homes in the nice areas of Longfellow and Nokomis go for a min. of $169K. Also, the assessed valu of you home is typically less than the market value.
“Also, the assessed valu of you home is typically less than the market value.”
It helps to keep property taxes down.
“Also, the assessed valu of you home is typically less than the market value.”
This is changing. Several years ago the Legislature changed the formula. Assessed values are slowly being increased to match market values, which is one big reason why property taxes keep rising.
“This is changing. Several years ago the Legislature changed the formula.”
Not as much as you might think. They are consistently 15% - 20% lower.
I believe, but might be wrong, that the eventual goal is to have assessed value match market value.
“is to have assessed value match market value.”
Impossible. Market value is a moment to moment thing. It changes daily. If I can sell my house to some sap for 30 or 40k over the asking price for some odd reason, should the taxes on the property go up right then and there? If the market tanks and I have to take a huge lose to get out of the house should the taxes go down right then and there? The assessed value will always be more constant so theat govts can budget on what they can expect from property taxes.
I wasnt dumb enough to fall for that s^&%.
At the time I bought my house the fix rates where 5.08. Any moron should know thats about as low of a fix rate you’re going to get in the next 20 years. The only reason people got A.M.S. is because They didn’t do their research, or where just blame greedy and wanted things they knew damn will they couldn’t afford. But N.B.C., C.N.N. and out local media leave that part of the story out.
Stories about “victims” works. Stories about dumb#@# donesnt.
Also with most people paying taxes on a semi annual basis and then doing it through escrow, how could you reconcile the two ammounts and still have people know what to pay? People would end up not budgeting correctly and underpaying their property taxes.
“The only reason people got A.M.S.”
Huh?
If you are a short term borrower, why not get a 5/1 ARM? If you are going to be gone in 4 years, why pay a higher rate for the security of a 30 yr fixed if you dont need it? Sometimes ARMs are good financial instruments. People just dont plan correctly or think financial rules are constant. They arent. Whats good for me in my situation may be stupid for someone else. There is no right or wrong just appropriate or not.
Mark a,
I’m not an expert on this…grin…just noting what I believe to be what the Legislature wanted to accomplish.
JonR,
Its too impracticle. And you dont want that system anyway, youd pay more taxes.
I wonder if these folks have an A.R.M.
JOHNS CREEK, Ga. — Danny Fendley tried to start his lawn mower in the garage of his two-story brick home. When he tugged its pull cord, the mower burst into flames. The fire quickly spread through the garage.
Fendley said his wife tried to toss a can of gasoline out a window as the blaze spread. She missed, spreading the fuel everywhere.
The flames consumed the house in less than a minute. The couple escaped without serious injury.
DG,
What would that have to do with a house fire?
DG: I saw that story, too! I couldn’t help laughing. I know it’s a serious situation, but the visual is like Laurel and Hardy.
Mark, I was being facetious. But how bizarre is it that someone picks up a can of gasoline to toss it out the window and spills it all over. That just doesn’t sound like the whole story to me.
I don’t know. I could see myself doing that. :)
It does seem odd that a two story brick house would go up in less than a minute. Even if it started in an attached garage and the connecting door was open, that’s pretty quick. Then again, I’m not really an expert. Maybe their house was full of flammable 3M products. :)
You may want to reaquaint yourself with the housing market. Most 1 and 2 bedroom homes in the nice areas of Longfellow and Nokomis go for a min. of $169K.
I would if I were interested in selling, but the location is great for us, and we’ve done a bit of fixing up with the intent of staying put for a while. I was just amazed that a tiny box could fetch $175K!
At the time I bought my house the fix rates where 5.08. Any moron should know thats about as low of a fix rate you’re going to get in the next 20 years.
A little over four years ago, we refinanced into a 15-year fixed mortgage at 5%. (We had been in a 30-year fixed mortgage at 6.5%.) We knew a good deal when we saw it! I fully expect not to refinance again.
If the market tanks and I have to take a huge lose to get out of the house should the taxes go down right then and there?
We’re all used to property taxes going up as a home’s value is reassessed upward from its appreciation. But what happens in a downward market, when home values come down? Do property taxes ever go down because property values fall?
“Do property taxes ever go down because property values fall?”
Stands to reason that they would. Thats a reason for keeping more cops in high income areas, to keep the property tax base intact. My point was to JonR that assessed value will never keep pace with market value because of its impraticality.
NADB,
You made me laugh out loud at my desk!
Mark a says : Stands to reason that they would. Thats a reason for keeping more cops in high income areas, to keep the property tax base intact. My point was to JonR that assessed value will never keep pace with market value because of its impraticality.
See Markie its s^%$ like that that gives you “Fruitcake” status..honest to god just when you think maybe the guy has had a “come to reason” moment..its back to the same old crap.
Again, the Boy Scouts is a wonderful organization which helps our young people learn real values, and just because they wisely discourage practicing homosexuals from mentoring their vulnerable young members, the left is attacking them. Why can’t they they leave the Scouts alone and keep their traditional way of doing things. They have benefited the country over the years.
Just like Muslim Somali cab drivers who refuse service to people who are carrying alcohol or pork, are blind and need to have a seeing eye dog, or are homosexual are in the wrong line of work, gay men who want to go on camping trips with boys are in the wrong line of work.
If left leaning groups like the United Way continue to deny funds to the Boy Scouts for doing the right thing, I suggest people take the money they normally would have given to the United Way and donate directly to the Boy Scouts.
“Again, the Boy Scouts is a wonderful organization which helps our young people learn real values…”
Real values like bigotry, intolerance, discrimination, and homophobia?
“…just because they wisely discourage practicing homosexuals from mentoring their vulnerable young members…”
Then men and women should be prohibited from coaching teams of the opposite gender to protect those “vulnerable” young people. Are you afraid that a scout might catch something from a gay Scout Master…such as “turning gay?”
“…gay men who want to go on camping trips with boys are in the wrong line of work…”
Are you suggesting that a gay man might want to be a Scout Master for sexual purposes or “recruiting?”
Hi, all,
JonR, you responded to d2si and said:
“Are you suggesting that a gay man might want to be a Scout Master for sexual purposes or “recruiting?”
Back in the late 60s one of the biggies at Children’s Theater was a guy named John Clark Donahue. One night in 1970 when I was working lights for Theatre in the Round’s production of “Long Day’s Journey Into Night,” I heard a guy named Martin Bowman, a terrific costumer and a gay man, say to another: “Everybody knows John started CTC because he’s got a thing for kids.”
The rest is history. I am not making this up. Yes, SOME gay guys recruit; besides JCD, I know personally of two more.
[T]he Boy Scouts is a wonderful organization which helps our young people learn real values…
It doesn’t help gay boys, atheists – or girls!
[J]ust because they wisely discourage practicing homosexuals from mentoring their vulnerable young members, the left is attacking them.
Most on the left aren’t “attacking” the Scouts. They’re just not giving them money. Voicing disapproval of discrimination is not an “attack.” If the Scouts can discriminate against people, then people can discriminate against the Scouts. What’s good for the goose…
Why can’t they they leave the Scouts alone and keep their traditional way of doing things.
Most of us are leaving them alone; our donations are also leaving them alone. However, in a country where freedom of speech is a valued right, those of us who think the Scout’s philosophy of discrimination is wrong will exercise that right to voice our opinions – and try to convince others that the Scouts are wrong. That’s the American way, d2si.
[G]ay men who want to go on camping trips with boys are in the wrong line of work.
This sentence drips with the assumption that the only reason gay men want to go on camping trips with boys is to have sex with them (as if camping is all there is to scouting). It also presumes that all gay men have ulterior motives and no morals or ethics. Sure, some gay men fit these assumptions, but I could say the same thing about some straight men. And your ana-logy (stupid filter!) to the Somali cab drivers is flawed. You support the Scout’s right to discriminate based on their religious beliefs, but not the Somali cab drivers.
If left leaning groups like the United Way continue to deny funds to the Boy Scouts for doing the right thing, I suggest people take the money they normally would have given to the United Way and donate directly to the Boy Scouts.
For people who want to donate to the Scouts, this is an excellent suggestion. For the rest of us, we’ll just wait for the Scouts to be more inclusive before we give them any money.
“See Markie its s^%$ like that that gives you “Fruitcake” status”
Thank god for that. I would never want to be on your side of anything Brimn, Id consider it a personal failing on my point. Keep calling me what you will. It means Im on the right track.
Former Carrier, for every horror story you can tell about gay men “recruiting” boys, there are a hundred stories about straight men sexually abusing girls. Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing, and they are not related. Pedophiles can be found among men and women, gays and straights — but the majority of them are straight men. Yes, some gay men “recruit.” But if your point is to judge all gay men by those who “recruit,” think about how you would feel were I to judge you and all other straight men by your community’s pedophiles.
FC,
I well remember the Donahue scandal. What he did was unforgivable. However, the examples you give are examples of pedophilia, which has nothing to do with being gay.
As has been noted here countless times, the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual. If the real concern is protecting “vulnerable children,” then why are men allowed to coach girls’ athletic teams? Couldn’t one of those male coaches want to “recruit” a young girl?
“Bail for Joseph A. Tucker, 31, was set at $10,000 on Wednesday, a day after he was charged with violating an order to have no contact with a 17-year-old female student with whom he’d had a sexual relationship. He was still in custody as of late Wednesday afternoon.”
We really should keep straight men away from our young girls.
“Como High teacher on leave in sex allegations
A St. Paul Como Park High School teacher has been put on administrative leave amid allegations that he had sexual contact with a female student, a school district spokesman said.
Star Tribune”
Man, these guys are a serious problem.
Hi, all,
EBF, you said: “Former Carrier, for every horror story you can tell about gay men ‘recruiting’ boys, there are a hundred stories about straight men sexually abusing girls.”
I doubt the “hundred,” but I’ll let that pass for the sake of your point, which I concede.
I made my comment in the face of JonR’s implication (note: implication) that gay guys don’t “recruit.” Perhaps the implication was a mistake on my part, and perhaps JonR can tell us just what he meant. (By the way, the trouble with a universal positive or a universal negative is that even one example to the contrary disproves the statement.)
I do agree that anyone who has power or authority over the young and abuses it in any way is doing something terrible. I think the worst effect is the shattering of trust in the heart of the youngster. MarkA is right there.
EBF, you said: “But if your point is to judge all gay men by those who ‘recruit,’ think about how you would feel were I to judge you and all other straight men by your community’s pedophiles.”
That wasn’t my point, but I do admit that it is more than possible, in fact certain, that some young gay guys have had the snot beaten out of them just because they were gay (and it wouldn’t surprise me a bit to hear that something like that has happened to you or JonR, though I personally don’t know of my own experience). In this sense your point is well taken.
All this reminds me of the shampoo commercial that said you never get a second chance to make a first impression. If, for instance, your, or JonR’s, first impression of straight men’s attitude about your sexuality was unpleasant and/or violent, *of course* you’re going to feel and think differently than if your first impression was something like “this authority figure knows I’m gay, and accepts it and me.”
I don’t judge all gay men by those who I know were predators or recruiters. Not anymore, that is, but it’s taken me about 35 years to get here.
PS –(with smiley face) what makes you think I’m a male, and what makes you think I’m straight? For all you know I’m a little green being from Mars who reproduces by fission.
An amoeba named Joe and his brother
Were drinking up toasts to each other;
In the midst of their quaffing
They split themselves laughing –
Now each of them is a mother.
I doubt the “hundred,” but I’ll let that pass for the sake of your point, which I concede.
One hundred wouldn’t be too far off the mark, but I appreciate that you understood my point.
I made my comment in the face of JonR’s implication (note: implication) that gay guys don’t “recruit.”
Technically, no one can “recruit” someone into a sexual orientation. If you’re not gay, no gay man can “recruit” you into being gay. A gay man can take advantage of or rape a vulnerable boy or man — both of which are wrong — or, at best seduce another man (in which case maybe that other man is gay or bi). But no truly straight man was ever “recruited” into being gay.
[I]t is more than possible, in fact certain, that some young gay guys have had the snot beaten out of them just because they were gay (and it wouldn’t surprise me a bit to hear that something like that has happened to you or JonR…).
Some young gay men have been killed just because they’re gay. I have not personally been beat up for being gay, but before I met my husband, he was sodomized for a knife and left for dead. The cops would do nothing.
I don’t judge all gay men by those who I know were predators or recruiters. Not anymore, that is, but it’s taken me about 35 years to get here.
I’m glad you finally arrived, FC!
[M]hat makes you think I’m a male, and what makes you think I’m straight?
Male? Must have been something I presumed from your posts. My apologies if I’m incorrect. Straight? Your opposition to same-sex marriage (some gay men and lesbians oppose marriage equality, but not many).
For all you know I’m a little green being from Mars who reproduces by fission.
Sounds more like a certain troll we all know and loathe….
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Katherine Kersten writes a weekly column for the Star Tribune's Sunday Opinion Exchange section. The column covers a broad range of topics reflecting her experiences and interests.
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