Klobuchar, Coleman Help Revive John Doe
July 26th, 2007 – 7:54 AMLast week, “John Doe” appeared to be down for the count. But the congressional initiative to grant lawsuit protection to people who report suspicious behavior has a new lease on life. Minnesota’s two senators played no small part in its last-minute resuscitation.
John Doe, you recall, was the term that the “flying imams” used in their federal suit to designate unnamed passengers who had alerted authorities to the imams’ “suspicious” behavior on a US Airways aircraft. The imams were removed from the plane in the Twin Cities in November, questioned and released.
The imams’ suit — which targeted the John Doe citizens as well as the airline and the airport — prompted widespread concern and inspired U.S. Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., to introduce legislation to give immunity to such whistleblowers.
Last week, the John Doe provision became mired in technicalities as Democratic leaders tried to kill it in a conference committee on a homeland security bill. A Senate attempt to keep it alive as an amendment to another bill fell three votes short of passage.
But Tuesday night, King announced that the John Doe provision would be part of the security bill after all. The House is expected to vote on the bill this week, and the Senate next week.
I had a hunch that John Doe’s resurrection might be just around the corner when I talked to Sen. Amy Klobuchar on Monday.
Klobuchar’s vote was one of the three that seemed to sink John Doe. But on Monday, she told me that she had decided to support the measure. “It came up in the middle of the night, attached to an unrelated bill,” she said. “I was thinking about a case I had in Bloomington as [Hennepin] county attorney. A security guard reported a series of fires set by a ‘Middle Eastern man,’ but police discovered he had set the fires himself. I wanted to make sure that the [immunity provision] had exceptions that would preserve the right to sue under such circumstances.”
After the late-night vote, Klobuchar talked to Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., a cochairman of the committee and a supporter of the John Doe provision. He alleviated her concerns, she said.
Sen. Norm Coleman backed John Doe’s resuscitation. He served on the conference committee that hammered out the language, and brought his perspective as former chairman of the subcommittee on investigations of the Senate’s Homeland Security committee. He supported the measure’s inclusion in the bill throughout negotiations.
In an interview on Tuesday night, King said that when the Democrats took control of Congress in January, they promised voters to pass the ultimate homeland security bill. “But how can you have that if you don’t give protection to people who report potential terrorist activity?” he asked. After the John Doe amendment failed in the Senate, Democrats were “too embarrassed” to continue opposing immunity for people who report suspicious activity, he said.
Still, King added, Democratic conferees’ support was lukewarm. “They wanted to water it down, take all the teeth out of it,” he said. For example, they opposed making the provision retroactive to Nov. 20, in order to shield the passengers who reported the imams’ “suspicious” behavior. And they favored giving immunity only to individuals who report potential terrorist activity, not ordinary crimes.
“But how can the average person tell if he sees someone illegally buying machine guns whether it’s for Al-Qaida or a bank robbery?” he asked.
In its final form, the John Doe provision gives lawsuit immunity to individuals who make good faith reports of suspicious activities, and entitles them to attorneys fees and costs if they are sued, according to a spokesman for Coleman. It is retroactive to Oct. 1, 2006.
If the homeland security bill passes, it will be harder to discredit tipsters as engaging in racial profiling. Protection for John Does can come none too soon. Already, people are hesitating to report their suspicions for fear of being tarred as racial profilers. For example, the video store clerk who foiled a terrorist plan to attack Fort Dix, N.J., thought twice before he contacted authorities after seeing a video that showed the alleged plotters shooting guns at a target range and shouting “God is great!” . “Should I call someone or is that being racist?” he told the New York Post he had asked a co-worker.
“Radical Islamic groups are using lawsuits as weapons to intimidate and silence their opponents,” says Steven Emerson, a terrorism expert who has testified before Congress and was himself the target of a lawsuit. “Suing passengers is an extension of their effort to intimidate and stifle people who simply report suspicious activity.”
Every day, we read of the urgent need for John Doe immunity. This week, the Transportation Security Administration acknowledged that terrorists may be making dry runs for attacks at U.S. airports. In recent months, security personnel have discovered items that mimic bombs and improvised explosive devices in checked and carry-on luggage. According to a TSA bulletin, these could be “pre-attack security probes,” or repeat operations to desensitize security officials.
158 Responses to "Klobuchar, Coleman Help Revive John Doe"
Is this for real? What is wrong with these “politicians” when they are more concerned about racial profiling than terrorism?
What is wrong with our legal system when an individual reporting suspicious activity can be sued? NO WONDER THERE IS SO MUCH CRIMINAL ACTIVITY!
I saw “flying imams” in the first part and stopped reading.
Just another one of KK’s “AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MUSLIMS” posts.
diamondgrl, according to Katherine, it was a civilian deciding whether or not to report a suspicious incident — not a politician — who was concerned about being labeled a racist. Reread the third paragraph from the end for clarification.
Yes, but in the first part of the article it indicates that there was a lot political foot dragging through two sessions to pass the bill.
With Klobuchar sitting on the fence. Now here’s a politician sitting on the fence. From this persepective, she is indecisive and waiting around for someone else to convince her of which way to vote. Great! That’s what we need!
“From this persepective, she is indecisive and waiting around for someone else to convince her of which way to vote. Great! That’s what we need!”
Getting all the facts is a GOOD idea. Seeking council is a sign of maturity. I like it. Im glad I voted for her.
” What is wrong with these “politicians” when they are more concerned about racial profiling than terrorism?”
Because when you’re not concerned with it at all and no one is acting as a counter to hysteria, you end up with people in internment camps.
No one said anything about not being concerned “at all”.
I think that racial profiling is a pretty minor concern compared to terrorism. I don’t care what color people are, if they are acting suspicious, they should be reported. Period.
” I don’t care what color people are, if they are acting suspicious, they should be reported. Period.”
Great, in Utopia. Problem is it never works that way. Our govt. has people so scared of their own shadow they’ve lost perspective. This law is a perfect tool for people like our dear departed Vinny and Dare2 to fly of the handle. People with a legitimate concern should be protected, but others willfully manipulating the law should enjoy no such protection. Im glad Sen Klobuchar took the time to get that assurance before she voted.
Seeking council is a sign of maturity.
Yes, just remember, I’m always here for all of you.
Yes, but in the first part of the article it indicates that there was a lot political foot dragging through two sessions to pass the bill….With Klobuchar sitting on the fence.
I think Klobuchar had legitimate concerns; Katherine cites an example from their conversation. We don’t want to grant immunity to people who do not act in good faith. According to Katherine, once Klobuchar had that assurance, she was on board with the bill.
Logic won the day! Of course, I am glad to see that Amy took the time to make sure abusers of the measure would not be protected. Good for both of our senators! Though I don’t agree with Amy on a few things, I am so glad to see she isn’t the wimp that Mark Dayton was.
Did everyone see the new Pew research poll that suggests support for attacks against civilians is falling amongst Muslims in the middle east?
I will say it was completely fair for Klobuchar to make sure she thought it was right. There’s no reason to criticize her over this.
Is this legislation unique in some way to protect John Doe’s just in instances of reporting suspected terorist activity?
I mean, are “John Doe’s” already protected in reporting other suspicious activity like say drug dealing or things along those lines?
It’s important to get the bill right, to have the correct wording in it. If any politicians vote against this it is further proof that they are not concerned about the safety of this country and are weak on terrorism.
If any politicians vote against this it is further proof that they are not concerned about the safety of this country and are weak on terrorism.
How do you come to this conclusion, especially after you state that the bill should have the correct wording? Isn’t it possible that some senators will still have concerns about how the bill is worded — enough to warrant a vote against it? Please explain how a “no” vote automatically equals a lack of concern about the safety of the United States.
Shouldn’t those things be discussed prior to putting a bill for a vote? I find it hard to believe that they haven’t all had the opportunity to review the bill and discuss amendments prior to voting.
” Isn’t it possible that some senators will still have concerns about how the bill is worded — enough to warrant a vote against it?”
Let’s hope not. The first defense against terrorism is the citizen. If the citizen isn’t free to report their legitimate concerns with out fear of a lawsuit then we have real problems.
EBF, please explain how you think a “no” vote equals concern for the safety of the US.
Profiling happens all of the time in the educational system and throughout our society.
You are sent to a specific school because of your skin color. (I know the Supreme Court is trying to correct this)
We also profile groups of people when it comes to employment and criminal law. (my favorite “Hate Crimes”)
Hopefully this law will “protect” people who engage in these practices as well. *sigh*
“Profiling happens all of the time in the educational system and throughout our society.”
It does, but there is a reason for some of it; it is not always stereotyping or hatred or fear; there are legitimate reasons and statistics to support profiling.
I’m glad Klobuchar sought advice, but Joe Lieberman?? Yikes. I can think of a lot of people better than him.
The flying imam topic is making me dumm… Kan’t diskuss ferther…
If this legislation was to protect Jon Doe’s who provide tips against militant groups and Timothy McVeigh, Klobuchar would not have any concerns at all.
EBF, please explain how you think a “no” vote equals concern for the safety of the US.
A man who has a grudge against a certain group of people begins setting fires to their homes. He is sly, and police and fire officials are initially baffled about this latest crime spree. Nursing his grudge, he calls the police and reports that he saw someone (who happens to belong to the group against whom he has a grudge) start a fire. The police arrest a bewildered man, determine that he did not start any fire, and release him after holding him in jail over a weekend.
Continuing their investigation, the police finally discover who really started the fires — the very same man who falsely accused someone else of the crime. The falsely accused man, rightfully outraged, wishes to sue for damages on the ground that the real arsonist bore false witness.
But when the man talks to his attorney, he is told that he cannot sue for damages because of a law recently enacted by congress that protects John Does who report crimes. “But he bore false witness!” protests the man. “He did not act in good faith.”
“I know,” replies his attorney, “but Congress rushed this law through without considering the consequences. There’s no provision for people who act in bad faith. Perhaps if congress had taken the time to really work through the details, you’d have a case. But no one in congress wanted to give the appearance of being ’soft on terror,’ so the bill passed as is.”
“What does my case have to do with terrorism?” asks the man.
“Nothing,” replies his attorney, “but that’s irrelevant. Because of this law, you’re out of luck. Sorry.”
AG, put yourself in the shoes of the man who was falsely accused. Now do you understand? Congress needs to take the time to make sure the bills they pass don’t have unintended consequences; that’ how they protect us citizens from oversights and mistakes.
OK, I’ve answered your question. Now answer mine, which I repeat here for your convenience: Please explain how a “no” vote automatically equals a lack of concern about the safety of the United States.
“If this legislation was to protect Jon Doe’s who provide tips against militant groups and Timothy McVeigh, Klobuchar would not have any concerns at all.”
Ahhh yes…. The reverse racism card. Its so hard to be a white man. Boo Hoo.
Hey Matt, did you hear Ellison denounced the 9/11 attacks?
“Congress needs to take the time to make sure the bills they pass don’t have unintended consequences”
In sports, sometimes the best trade is the one you never made. Maybe in congress sometimes the best law is the one you never passed. Get it right the first time and you dont have to waste time cleaning up unintended consequences.
EBF, let me clarify my statement. After they get it right (to protect your one in a billion scenario), if a politician doesn’t vote for the bill he is not concerned about the safety of the US. If the terrorists know that no one will report them they will be more apt to try something. Don’t you get it?????????????
I see mark a only has concerns for some people, it must be nice to be wholly tolerant.
Yes, you should feel great about your vote for Klobuchar, she promised to bring the troops home and you drank the kool-aid, how is that working out?
“(to protect your one in a billion scenario)”
The guy in Bloomington must have been the unlucky 1 out of a billion.
“Our govt. has people so scared of their own shadow they’ve lost perspective.”
I think Mark has this one correct.
“Because when you’re not concerned with it at all and no one is acting as a counter to hysteria, you end up with people in internment camps.”
God almighty Marka you have got to be the biggest idiot I’ve personally every come across. Do you say these thing just to be a contrarian?
Hey and by the way I though Canada was so great you where moving there. Yet here you are!
If you’re against something as sane as this bill then there is not much sense in reading anymore of your posts on any subject. You are wayyyyyyyyyyy out there. Outer space out there
“I see mark a only has concerns for some people, it must be nice to be wholly tolerant.”
I am a white male. Things in America are great.
“Yes, you should feel great about your vote for Klobuchar, she promised to bring the troops home and you drank the kool-aid, how is that working out?”
And keeping the troops there? Is that working well? Talk about kool aid….
You need to work a little harder at this Matt. We can disagree and remain civil, but come up with someting better than the tired old cliches.
Ahhh yes…. The reverse racism card. Its so hard to be a white man. Boo Hoo.
What frickin’ world do you live in ! You hate your country, you hate your race, Conservatives, religious people man you hate everything…
Take some damn valium for crying out loud
“God almighty Marka you have got to be the biggest idiot I’ve personally every come across. Do you say these thing just to be a contrarian?”
Part of the fun of this blog is coming across people like yourself. I was wondering where you went to. Its been atleast 20 minutes since I’ve thought about the liberal global warming conspiracy. To answer your question, no. Im say it because Im a gainst facism.
“Hey and by the way I though Canada was so great you where moving there.”
That must have been a dilusion. I said my wife is Canadian. Im from MN and I love Mpls. I plan on running for mayor.
” If you’re against something as sane as this bill then there is not much sense in reading anymore of your posts on any subject. You are wayyyyyyyyyyy out there. Outer space out there”
You may want to look into a course to improve your reading. Im for the bill. Im also glad Sen. Klobuchar took the time to get it right. Exactly where did I say I was against it? Open your mind brimn and remove some of the bias you have that keeps you from thinking rationaly.
“What frickin’ world do you live in ! You hate your country, you hate your race, Conservatives, religious people man you hate everything…”
Yep. Im an anti american, commi race trader.
Yes, mark a, don’t try post clever or intelligent posts, just be yourself, ok?
So, mark a, educate us all please, white males have it great in America, how is everyone else doing?
And, obviously, keeping the troops in Iraq is a really bad idea, what do you suggest?
Yes, mark a, don’t try post clever or intelligent posts, just be yourself, ok?
So, mark a, educate us all please, white males have it great in America, how is everyone else doing?
And, obviously, keeping the troops in Iraq is a really bad idea, what do you suggest?
Yes, mark a, don’t try post clever or intelligent posts, just be yourself, ok?
So, mark a, educate us all please, white males have it great in America, how is everyone else doing?
And, obviously, keeping the troops in Iraq is a really bad idea, what do you suggest?
“Our govt. has people so scared of their own shadow they’ve lost perspective.”
Humm, must be just the Democrats who are scared. Personally I don’t see anything in this bill or in the Patriot Act that scares me or that I am concerned about. Maybe it’s because I don’t mean any harm to my country?
Whooo Matt slow down. Try to wait atleast a second or two after you’ve hit ’submit comment’.
“don’t try post clever or intelligent posts, just be yourself, ok”
Im always myself. People that know me in person would read this stuff and have no doubts I wrote it. My real name is actually Mark and my innitial is A. Also I am clever in real life so that wont stop. As far as not trying to make intellegent posts, would you like me to dumn them down so they are easier for you and Brimn to understand?
“So, mark a, educate us all please, white males have it great in America, how is everyone else doing?”
Most people are doing well. Our standard of living is great here. Why else would so many people be moving here? We arent perfect but we are far from terrible. I just find the white male pitty party tiring.
” keeping the troops in Iraq is a really bad idea, what do you suggest?”
Ill defer to Biden on this one. Take your time but redeploy.
mark a
can you also explain to me why you chose to say “reverse” racism? Isn’t racism, racism?
Avg guy,
You dont think the govt jerks peoples chains in order to keep them scared? I do. Im not affraid of the Patriot Act either. Im talking about the people who are paranoid everytime a Red and White taxi drives by.
“can you also explain to me why you chose to say “reverse” racism? Isn’t racism, racism?”
It’s a colloquialism. People use it when refering to racism against whites ao I do too. But if you want to we can call it racism. Personally Ive never been descriminted against due to my color so when people whine about racism against whites I laugh. I also find it ironic that it is usually the people who moan the loudest about racism against whites that cant stand others moaning about racism.
“Take your time and redeploy”
Whew, I thought Iraq was complicated but apprently not, this is a huge relief.
“People use it when refering to racism against whites ao I do too”-
Yep, just follow the crowd.
So, since racism has never happened to you personally, that means it is entirely implausible?
“Yep, just follow the crowd.”
Boy you’ve really got me figured out.
“So, since racism has never happened to you personally, that means it is entirely implausible?”
Unless you’re in the NBA or singing for Motown, I doubt you deal with it that often.
“Whew, I thought Iraq was complicated but apprently not, this is a huge relief.”
Well then I guess Bush is a genious.
Mark a-
I’ll try again, since racism has never happened to you personally, that means it is entirely implausible?
“Well then I guess Bush is a genious.”
Sarcasm, right? Because libs/dems like to tell us how Bush is the dumbest human being in history, well, except for rigging, not 1 but 2 elections, manipulating gas prices, orchestrating 9/11, manufacturing evidence to lead a nation to war- anything I’ve left out?
“I’ll try again, since racism has never happened to you personally, that means it is entirely implausible?”
Are you serious? Sure its possible. Is it a national epidemic like some bitchy uneducated white guys think? No. Id put it right in between hemroids and crab grass on the national epidemic radar.
“Sarcasm, right?”
Cant slip anything by you can I Matt? I hope your not saying Biden’s solution is too simple and Bush’s plan of hanging out in Iraq for a while a triumph of reason. Besides I think it was Cheney who said we would be greated as liborators, so if you want to talk about the people who thought Iraq wasnt going to be complicated Id be happy to debate the subject.
Hi, all,
This is something I know something about and am concerned about. There is behavior - not just suspcious but obviously criminal - happening on my block all the time. Yes, I’m concerned about national security, but more immediately concerned on a daily basis about my own safety and security and that of my neighbors, especially the children.
If KK’s description of the bill is accurate, then I’m all for it. For instance, it’s common talk on my block that if someone tries to break into a house, and the resident injures the intruder before the police come, the intruder can sue the homeowner. Which if so is insane.
I can tell you plainly that, of the crimes of all kinds committed on my block where the suspect can be seen, about 99% of the suspects are of one group. But I have been accused of being a racist for saying so. I don’t think that’s sane either.
I must add that we have one of just about everyone in our block club; the resident homeowners and almost all the renters are very good neighbors.
“except for rigging, not 1 but 2 elections, manipulating gas prices, orchestrating 9/11, manufacturing evidence to lead a nation to war”
Sorry I forgot. The elections he didnt do, Rove did (LBJ and JFK both did too so I cant begrudge the GOP for doing it as well), the next one you’d know I dont believe if you were here two days ago. Big Oil isnt gouging anyone. 9/11 conspiracies belong to Moore not me. The last one I think he did.
“Avg_Guy, You dont think the govt jerks peoples chains in order to keep them scared?”
You mean of course things like the danger of second hand smoke, man made global warming, stuff like that? Well then perhaps they do!
“You mean of course things like the danger of second hand smoke, man made global warming, stuff like that? Well then perhaps they do!”
Touche!
Nice work. :)
“Is it a national epidemic like some bitchy uneducated white guys think?”
How do decide who you are tolerant of and who you aren’t, does it change on a dialy basis or do you have a flavor of the month?
“Besides I think it was Cheney who said we would be greated as liborators”
Boy, you gotta love those rock-solid references mark a brings to the table.
And, yes, Sherlock, I was saying Biden’s “solution” is too simple, how did you pick up on that?
Avg guy,
You made a great point above. However, I was refering to things like raising the terror alert level. I love it how FOX trolls it across the bottom of their screen without end. We get it,the terror alert level is E L E V A T E D. Also how many times have you seen an Al Qeda video released talking about impending doom. Im sure those guys release them and sit back and laugh at us and how we piss our pants.
“How do decide who you are tolerant of and who you aren’t, does it change on a dialy basis or do you have a flavor of the month?”
Are you trying to say Im not tollerant of white guys? Ill have to let my friends know that. Ill tolerate your right to say anything you want. Do I have to agree with you, no. Ill tell you the same thing I tell other people who feel they are descriminated against. Perhaps its not your skin but your attitude.
FC: Not sure about the others, but I read your response. I agree that victims and potential victims are subject to frivolous lawsuits. There’s the old story about the guy who broke into someone’s store via the air exchange, got stuck, then sued the business.
I’m not sure of the wording in this bill, but I would hope that it would apply a little more narrowly than to just any “whistleblower”. That’s where I can see a danger. If I don’t like the fact that my neighbors are Muslim, I can accuse them of something nefarious causing them to be arrested even if it isn’t true. In the context of terrorism and the negative view of Muslims, I could easily see this happening. I think that’s the same concern Klobuchar had, but I’m disappointed she’s just taking Lieberman’s word that it’s OK. He just doesn’t seem very trustworthy.
It’s also what you say of our own neighborhoods. The troublemakers in a given neighborhood tend to be of the same race, although it differs from one place to the next. And all it takes is one or two bad groups to destroy an entire neighborhood of decent people. Sad.
“Boy, you gotta love those rock-solid references mark a brings to the table.”
Some people think so, others dont. ill just have to live with it. So now that we understand what I think the military should do, whats your solution?
Perhaps its not your skin but your attitude.
BINGO!
“I can accuse them of something nefarious causing them to be arrested even if it isn’t true”
Didnt this happen before in Salem, MA?
Hi, all,
“Didn’t this happen before in Salem, MA?”
Yes, it did, and it was in 1692, 100 years before the US Constitution; that said, it could happen again and has, I’m sure. Mob hysteria can happen anywhere, anytime.
brimn, I have an honest question for you. Why is it that when a conservative sees that someone holds an opposing view on a topic, they immediately attack that person as being unpatriotic? I’ve noticed this a lot more lately on the talk shows (which aren’t a very good representation, I know), but also in Congress.
In each case, the liberal hasn’t said anything negative of the country itself, but of its leaders and the direction they’re taking. It’s appropriate to be concerned and alarmed when you think the country is being improperly led and that’s what many liberals (myself included) are pointing out.
Do conservatives truly have a fear that liberals are trying to destroy the country or is it just a reaction because they don’t understand that view and can find no other way to explain or justify it?
I’m not asking to be mean or snarky, I’m truly interested in where this thinking comes from.
“Yes, it did, and it was in 1692, 100 years before the US Constitution; that said, it could happen again and has, I’m sure. Mob hysteria can happen anywhere, anytime.”
Probably the most widely known being the internment camps for Japanese Americans in WWII. Legal citizens rounded up and treated like criminals based on race. Nice.
To a different extent, you could say it’s happening with Guantanamo, except they aren’t US citizens. But many are innocent and being wrongly held based on someone else’s “suspicions”. In fact, some were ratted out by neighbors expressly to get rid of them or for money.
mark a-
“Perhaps its not your skin but your attitude.”
Does that go for all people or just the, bitchy uneducated white guys, you referred to in your earlier post?
Matt,
Everybody.
But I can see where youre going. Like I said earlier, try harder.
“Take your time but redeploy”
I understand this is your blueprint for success along with Biden but can you expond on it a bit? “Take your time”? What does that entail, how long? What has to happen?
“Probably the most widely known being the internment camps for Japanese Americans in WWII. Legal citizens rounded up and treated like criminals based on race. Nice.”
Dont forget the Germans. They were interned too.
http://www.foitimes.com/internment/Facesplaces.htm
Bet you didnt see that coming did you Matt? Sometimes white people ARE descriminated against.
mark a says:
“Also how many times have you seen an Al Qeda video released talking about impending doom. Im sure those guys release them and sit back and laugh at us and how we piss our pants”.
I think it is liberals like you they laugh at mark.
You coddle the terrorists, try to “understand their feelings” and fight against reasonable legislation to help put an end to this nonsense.
Sadly, however “good” your intentions are, you end up as their lapdogs.
I wonder if you even know this????
“What does that entail, how long? What has to happen?”
Im not a general. I cant give you specifics about leaving anymore than you can about staying. But perhaps youd care to answer my question, since Ive answered yours?
Your Iraq solution is what?
Hi, all,
Thank you, NADB. I should have remembered 1942 on the West Coast because I’ve read so much about it, plus my dad knew a woman, a secretary to a federal judge here, who grew up in an internment camp; plus I know a woman whose mom did too. (I wasn’t born just quite yet then, but close.)
How did the Nisei responded to this terrible treatment? The young men formed the 442nd Combat Team, which fought so bravely in WWII that they became the most decorated unit in the US Army. Dan Inouye was an infantry lieutenant in Italy in April, 1945, won two decorations including the DSC, a battlefield promotion, and lost his arm. Later he was elected to the US Senate from Hawaii.
I’m not sure what to think about Guantanamo because I have heard so much conflicting evidence about it that I need to research further.
“I think it is liberals like you they laugh at mark.
You coddle the terrorists, try to “understand their feelings” and fight against reasonable legislation to help put an end to this nonsense.
Sadly, however “good” your intentions are, you end up as their lapdogs.
I wonder if you even know this????”
Go ahead and label me FYM. All I know is that you obviously are only a casual visitor to this blog and havent read many of the things I’ve posted in the past. Does it make you feel good to take shots at percieved liberals? Even if that means you take shots at people that arent really liberals as you understand the term?
“Did everyone see the new Pew research poll that suggests support for attacks against civilians is falling amongst Muslims in the middle east?”
Hopefully, AQ will now see the error in thier ways and stop suicide bombings.
I do wonder though, did Pew contact anyone from AQ for this poll?
By the way FYM, Its not me pissing my pants everytime Al Jazeera releases a video of Bin Laden. Im not the one who goes out and buys duct tape when the terror level goes up. Its my opinion we’ve fallen right into the trap Al Qeda layed for us.
“You coddle the terrorists, try to “understand their feelings” and fight against reasonable legislation to help put an end to this nonsense.”
I think that’s a misunderstanding that began with a Republican congressman after 9/11. The Democrats aren’t advocating ‘hug-ins’ or group therapy at all. But I think we’re trying to understand the true motive of what terrorists do. You have to understand the enemy in order to fight them properly. I think we made that mistake with Vietnam and now we’re doing the same with Iraq. We’ve made assumptions based on emotion, when we should be making decisions based on facts.
People don’t blow themselves up because they don’t like the fact that another country enjoys freedom. They do it in protest of that country’s political actions and there’s a personal stake involved.
Many of Bush’s own advisors warned him that al Qaeda had very specific greivances and motives for their actions. If I remember correctly, al Qaeda’s grievances have to do with our meddling in the Middle East, where we have little understanding and regard for their culture. Our response has been to increase the meddling, resulting in a resurgence of al Qaeda as well as the Taliban.
RED!!!
Good to see you! Ben to Matt’s lately?
“Thank you, NADB. I should have remembered 1942 on the West Coast”
German Americans were interned on the east cost too.
Hi, all,
Mark A, I either never knew that or had forgotten it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention so I can look it up. With 235+ books on WWII, I must have read about it sometime, though.
“Im not a general. I cant give you specifics about leaving ”
Let’s hear it again for mark a’s rock solid basis for his thoughts and opinions, tough to argue with that…
“Let’s hear it again for mark a’s rock solid basis for his thoughts and opinions, tough to argue with that”
Anyone else notice how Matt has managed to avoid answering my question twice on what he presumes to do in Iraq? Now for a third time Matt, keeping in mind how you’ve ripped me for not providing specifics, please tell all of us your glorious plan for victory in Iraq, and dont forget to be specific. My guess is you’ll avoid the question again because at this point I think you may actually be too scared to answer it.
“But I think we’re trying to understand the true motive of what terrorists do.”
To what end? If we find out that we do somethings they don’t like, then is it your reasoning that we change? Humm, ok, terrorists win!
“Im not a general. I cant give you specifics about leaving anymore than you can about staying. But perhaps youd care to answer my question, since Ive answered yours?”
What I said….
How Matt edited it….
“Im not a general. I cant give you specifics about leaving ”
So Matt, are the liberals the cowards here or is it you? Ive answered your questions, so now its time to put up or shut up. Iraq, the surge, staying the course, your thoughts?
mark a-
Why don’t you cut and paste the post I made claiming to have a plan to secure victory in Iraq?
And, no, mark a, no one else has noticed as this is tiny, little meaningless blog from a tiny, little meaningless paper. i think you’ve begun to take yourself and your posts a little too seriously.
“However, I was refering to things like raising the terror alert level. I love it how FOX trolls it across the bottom of their screen without end. We get it,the terror alert level is E L E V A T E D.”
mark a, I also wonder about when I go to the airport and the alert is always at least ELEVATED. While I realize we all need to be observant (and hopefully won’t be sued for being that way) it appears to me that ELEVATED soon means nothing, we’ve basically just raised the norm. Will be ever be at a Green level again?
“If we find out that we do somethings they don’t like, then is it your reasoning that we change? Humm, ok, terrorists win!”
I’ve never understood what they win, exactly. We’ve decimated Iraq and Afghanistan already and done nothing to punish the countries that actually supply the terrorists. Haven’t they already ‘won’?
I think, yes, we can change some of our policies if it means defusing a volatile situation. No one is suggesting we change the essence of the United States and destroy the Constitution (Bush has been doing that all on his own). But if we’re constantly telling others to change their ways, shouldn’t we have some flexibility too? Especially in matters that more directly impact their countries and not ours? It should not be our position to demand that we always be ‘right’. That leads to neverending conflict.
Turn ot around on me again Matt and continue to avoid the issue you raised.
“Why don’t you cut and paste the post I made claiming to have a plan to secure victory in Iraq?”
I would. Where is it?
“i think you’ve begun to take yourself and your posts a little too seriously.”
I am the king of this blog baby!!
So are you going to enlighten us on how we can win the war in Iraq or are you going to do some more spinning? To pose a question you refuse to answer yourself is pretty pathetic.
If you people really think that Bush has destroyed the constitution then why hasn’t he been impeached. You listen to way too much MoveOn.Org!!
Avg guy,
Exactly what Im talking about.
“Will be ever be at a Green level again?”
I saw an interesting interpretation of the terror alert system recently.
Red = Elmo
Orange = Ernie
Yellow = Bert
Blue = Cookie Monster
Green = Oscar
We’ll always be at Bert or Ernie because it’s better ‘news’. Besides, if we slipped to Cookie Monster or Oscar, they’d have to let us take liquids on planes again and destroy a whole industry based on solid shampoo.
“All I know is that you obviously are only a casual visitor to this blog and havent read many of the things I’ve posted in the past. Does it make you feel good to take shots at percieved liberals”?
I’ve been a visitor/contributor to this blog for a long time. (Where have you been BornDemocrat?)
I have read most of your postings mark and I don’t think labeling you a liberal is any big strech of my imagination.
With that said, my posting does sound a little mean spirited towards liberals and I apologize for that.
“By the way FYM, Its not me pissing my pants everytime Al Jazeera releases a video of Bin Laden. Im not the one who goes out and buys duct tape when the terror level goes up. Its my opinion we’ve fallen right into the trap Al Qeda layed for us.”
I agree, but maybe in a different way. I think that people are so afraid of being labeled a racist, islamophobe, etc., that we ARE playing right into their trap.
Coward?
Well, I wasn’t the one who said, “By the way FYM, Its me pissing my pants everytime Al Jazeera releases a video of Bin Laden”
“We’ve made assumptions based on emotion, when we should be making decisions based on facts.”
FACT: No matter what we in the “west” do - radical Islam will still want to enilate us. Mind you, I said RADICAL ISLAM, not all of Islam.
“If you people really think that Bush has destroyed the constitution then why hasn’t he been impeached.”
He should be. I can’t explain why the Democrats refuse to do it (although support has grown). That’s one of the reasons they were elected and it disappoints me to no end. Countless towns, counties and states have voted and issued pleas to impeach him to no avail. I’ve written my letters and sent my emails - there’s little else I can do as an individual. Taking it ‘off the table’ is irresponsible. This power was granted to Congress to be used in situations exactly like this.
On the positive side, Conyers has said that if three more House members sign on, he will pursue impeachment proceedings. I’m not sure who that’s directed at - they’d have to get rid of Cheney first, or else he’d be president. Talk about your worst nightmare.
Thanks mark, I was at both Matt’s and the Chatter Box within the last week or so. I have been spending alot of time in LA working on a new record for Lethal Dose Records - DJ Lethals new record Co.
I’m not liking the weather here too much.
Bush has not been impeached because he has done nothing that can stand up to an impeachment trial, like lying to the Grand Jury. Sorry to disappoint you, you’ll just have to wait for his term to end.
“mark a says:
July 26th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
By the way FYM, Its not me pissing my pants everytime Al Jazeera releases a video of Bin Laden”
Notice the subtle difference people.
“Matt says:
July 26th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Coward?
Well, I wasn’t the one who said, “By the way FYM, Its me pissing my pants everytime Al Jazeera releases a video of Bin Laden””
Nice edit. More spin. Coward.
So, the war. How should we win the war in Iraq Matt?
“…they’d have to get rid of Cheney first, or else he’d be president. Talk about your worst nightmare.”
Cheney was president for more then four hours last week and our republic didn’t implode.
“No matter what we in the “west” do - radical Islam will still want to enilate us. Mind you, I said RADICAL ISLAM, not all of Islam.”
I agree that there are radicals who simply want to kill Americans. But they are a small faction compared to all of Islam. There are also radical Christians who want to kill all abortion doctors. These people can’t be reasoned with, but the solution isn’t to destroy them. We can keep the values of American life without ‘poking the bear’, so to speak. They only hold the power we allow them to hold. By turning them into the ‘greatest threat to Democracy’, we have given them that power. The president has given them the best publicity they could have hoped for by mentioning them in virtually every speech he makes. If they’re holding us hostage, we’re certainly complicit.
” I have been spending alot of time in LA working on a new record for Lethal Dose Records - DJ Lethals new record Co.”
Not familiar with the artist? Local? If you’ve never seen him check out Hank III and assjack @ 1st ave on the 7th next month. Did you see Joey D’s is now Chris and Robs? Also the Cedar Inn is under new management…. Again….
” I have been spending alot of time in LA working on a new record for Lethal Dose Records - DJ Lethals new record Co.”
Not familiar with the artist? Local? If you’ve never seen him check out Hank III and assjack @ 1st ave on the 7th next month. Did you see Joey D’s is now Chris and Robs? Also the Cedar Inn is under new management…. Again….
“Cheney was president for more then four hours last week and our republic didn’t implode.”
Four hours wasn’t enough time for him to come in from the turkey shoot. :)
Cheney is the one advocating an attack on Iran, which Bush has not agreed to. If he were president for a significant amount of time, I do think he would attempt it.
“I have read most of your postings mark and I don’t think labeling you a liberal is any big strech of my imagination.”
So be it. Im a liberal when it comes to the war and gay marriage, a conservative on taxes and the economy. I guess it depends on the subject de jeur. I thought the PETA crowd yesterday arguing animal intellegence was crazy. Was that liberal or conservative?
NSDB
“Countless towns, counties and states have voted and issued pleas to impeach him to no avail.”
NAME THEM or if there are really “countless” then just NAME A FEW.
IF you can’t name any - then that line is just a rhetoric line of BS.
In addition, read exactly what an impeachment is in then constitution and WHO conducts it. And for a hint it is not “towns, counties and states”.
Furthermore, every “town, county and state” could vote to impeachment but it would not matter one bit - they don’t have the power. It would be a collosal waste of time and money!
When you make statements like the aforementioned above - you sound more like “ADumbBlonde” instaed of the opposite.
mark a-
Again, dodging questions, you will make a fine politician but I will ask you one more time, show me where I made a claim as to knowing the answer for winning in Iraq?
tick, tock, tick, tock……..
“Bush has not been impeached because he has done nothing that can stand up to an impeachment trial”
‘High crimes and misdemeanors’ is all it says in the Constitution. There is no definition. Subjugating the rights of the people could be considered ‘high crimes’, as could his knowledge of vote tampering, the outing of a CIA agent, the political firings of federal attorneys, etc.
In fact, civilian charges should have been brought against him prior to 2000 because of his fraudulent business dealings. Unfortunately, he got ‘lucky’ because the head of the SEC was replaced with a family friend at a critical point in the investigation. Alas, it is now too late.
mark a: DJ Lethal is one of the founding members of House of Pain, after HOP broke up he signed on to be the DJ for a little band named Limp Bizkit. Hank III and assjack - never heard of ‘em. I’ll have to look ‘em up.
NADB: I too, dont take Iran as a serious threat. At least not right now. If they build the capacity to bomb Israel, whats to stop them from bombing the holy Shhhhh out the the Holy City?
There is no easy solution to the current situation in the mid-east. There have been war’s going on there since the begining of time. For what? Religion.
I dont care for religion - one way or another. I have a Christian friend who will often times try to convert me and I have a converted Muslim friend who will stop nothing short of trying to convert as many as he can.
The way I see it - remove religion and the war’s will all but stop.
But, since we wont be removing religion, war’s will continue to rage.
“To pose a question you refuse to answer yourself is pretty pathetic.”
Where did I pose this question?
“I am the king of this blog baby!!”
And, you are also the king of your parents basement.
“And, you are also the king of your parents basement”
Not really. Im married, I live in South Mpls in a house, Im a banker and I have three cats and a dog. No kids yet but we’re going to start soon. I did actually live with my parents for the past eight months, but thats because I hada house fire and had no place to go. House is finished with the rebuild and we are back in. Care to make up more crap about me like you did with the edited quotes?
Red,
Hank III is Hank William’s grandson and Jrs boy. He does two sets. One is classic country (he looks exactly like his grand dad), the second is speed metal.
“I did actually live with my parents for the past eight months”
Yeah, I was way off.
“show me where I made a claim as to knowing the answer for winning in Iraq?”
Perhaps I misunderstood your dismisal of my post as baseless as a sign that you had some better solution. If Im wrong Ill take responsibility for it. Now, for the seventh time, even though you never claimed to have a solution, what would you do in Iraq?
NADB
“In fact, civilian charges should have been brought against him prior to 2000…”
How can your opinion “charges should have” be a fact.
Sounds more like a post from “ADB” not “NADB”
“Yeah, I was way off”
Did you read the rest of the post Matt? I had a house fire. But Im happy to say Ive moved back in.
MOI,
“IF you can’t name any - then that line is just a rhetoric line of BS”
Duluth
marketplace: I’m well aware that Congress presides over impeachment precedings. The point of smaller government systems voting on it is to send a message to their representatives.
As for a list, here are a few that I could research in a 2 minute time span. For the rest, go to impeachpac.org. Detroit city council, Vermont senate, Amherst MA, Berkely CA, Cambridge MA, Chapel Hill NC, Ithaca NY, Montpelier VT, Olympia WA, Richmond VT, San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Stockbridge MA, Telluride CO, Urbana IL. It has been introduced in 11 additional state legislatures, but not yet voted on.
Are any of these very influential places? Probably not (except Detroit because Conyers is in charge of the House Judiciary Commitee). But does it matter? Can you recall another time in history when local governments and their citizens became so frustrated they began sending their message in this manner?
“When you make statements like the aforementioned above - you sound more like “ADumbBlonde” instaed of the opposite.”
You don’t have to agree with me and I don’t have to agree with you. The difference is, I have not insulted you personally.
I carefully consider all sides of an issue to arrive at my opinion. Do you use that much consideration or are you blindly following one side?
Mark A.
First, ONE!!! that is the same as “countless” — lets 1 - nope that is countable.
Second, as you have pointed out about Matt - you edited my post - I said name a few..
Third, as you have also said to Matt - read the rest of my post…it does not matter if all towns, counties, and states voted…it does not matter. They don’t have the power.
But hey… nice try
“How can your opinion “charges should have” be a fact. Sounds more like a post from “ADB” not “NADB” ”
Perhaps I should have written ‘could’ instead of ’should’. It is not my opinion. It is a fact. George W. Bush’s financial creativity has been well documented. But since I’m apparently dumb (again!), you’ll have to do the research yourself.
“Second, as you have pointed out about Matt - you edited my post - I said name a few..”
Matt deleates words to change the meaning. I did no such thing. You said ‘if you cant name any…’ I named one. But its not hard to do a search and find COUNTLESS. But I agree with you. These votes in city councils to impeach Bush are stupid and pointless.
“Now, for the seventh time, even though you never claimed to have a solution, what would you do in Iraq?”
Does this make sense to anyone?
mark a, how would you cure cancer? I know you never said you could but tell me how you would do it.
You’re really grasping at straws here aren’t you? C’mon, not every day is a winner for you on this blog, sometimes others get the best of you.
“These votes in city councils to impeach Bush are stupid and pointless.”
They are not intended to be an actual vote of impeachment. They are intended to send a message to their representatives. It is a symbolic gesture of no confidence. Is it also stupid and pointless to send a letter to your representative? If so, then perhaps we shouldn’t have the right to vote since our opinions don’t matter.
Mark A. - you delete the previous line - that says name a few. ANd when that line is deleted it chnages the meaning of the next line.
HOWEVER
NADB
AS you pointed out there are many places that have either passed resolutions or introduced something about impeachment.
So her statement does to be partially correct. They are still “countable” as opposed to “countless”
Nevertheless, - what a waste of TIME and how irresponsible! Are they saying that me every person in the city or district or whatever is for impeachment. If their constituents are not for it than why do it. Other than complete grandstanding.
PLUS - my guess is it is not in their powers to do anything - most are probably over reaching their city or whatever powers by passing a resolution.
But hey it makes good press!
Again as Mark is in agreement and so are you - they don’t have the power - so WHO CARES.
“Is it also stupid and pointless to send a letter to your representative?”
As a constituent, no. But, city and state govts should be focusing on things they can control like local crime, schools and budgets. Impeachment of the president is so far out of their jurisdiction it is pointless and a waste of time. I think a city council member from Mpls tried to do this? Id rather they spend their time reducing our murder rate than sending a message to the president. Do that on your own time.
MOI,
“you delete the previous line - that says name a few.”
Fair enough. That was sloppy of me to focus on one line and ignore the larger meaning of your post. But you must admit, it wasnt as bad as changing “Im NOT the one who pisses my pants…” to “Im the one who pisses my pants…” That was willful slander.
“They are still “countable” as opposed to “countless””
You honestly resorted to calling me dumb because of that?
“my guess is it is not in their powers to do anything”
It sends a message. Why do you not understand that concept? It’s better than keeping quiet and just hoping it all works out OK.
NADB
city councils or whatever body of government does not vote in an election. The individual constituents vote. So IMHO a vote by city council is worthless where a letter or cal by a constituent is worth something.
NADB
A symbolic message is pointless!! If a city or whatever wants to send a “real” message then the city or whatever CITIZENS should be calling or writing.
A city or whatever government shoudl be focusing on their own piece of goverance.
WHY DONT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!!
Mark made my point much more elegantly
Matt,
This isnt in greek is it?
What do you think we should do in Iraq?
“C’mon, not every day is a winner for you on this blog, sometimes others get the best of you”
Is this a competition? Or is this like the war itself where both sides are going to delcare victory and no one really knows who’s telling the truth?
Slander-
an untrue spoken, not written, statement about a person with the intention of damaging that person’s reputation.
So, no, it was not slander but it was pretty funny.
I gotta go have a drink now, so Ill see all you all later. Hey Matt, Why not just admit you have no idea what to do in Iraq as oppossed to ripping my suggestion of withdrawl?
Here comes the spin….
NADB
If a elected official was making symbolic gestures in the name of my city about something I don’t believe in and that is not in their purview - I would be calling for their impeachment.
They represent me on city issues not FEDERAL ISSUES.
Why can’t you understand that!!
If a council votes for a resolution on impeachment - all it is - is the 4 or 5 or however many that vote for it are saying they want impeachment - NOT THE WHOLE CITY - and those 4 or 5 or whomever are misusing their power and their position to put forth their OWN adgenda that has nothing to do with the power they were given.
Why can’t you understand that!
Obviously truth and accuracy are hurdles for you as I clearly demonstarted in my “slander” post.
Actually mark a , it wasn’t your suggestion, you said it was Biden’s, right?
I’m tired of being yelled at and called dumb on a blog for a column that generally never makes sense. I’m going to do the ‘Democrat’ thing and ‘let the terrorists win’.
See ya.
Thank God for talk radio!
Without it, this idea of being sued for trying to protect America would still salivate with liberal trial lawyers and be covered up by the liberal media.
I wonder how Keith Hakim Ellison with advice from his brothers in CAIR would have voted?
Good job Amy!
How long Marka must I pay for my Swedish ancestries crimes against black people? You know paying them back for all those Scandinavian cotton plantations. You frickin Fruitcake
And them damn Norwegian terrorist! Time to start profiling them people!
Typical left-wing lunacy. Ditch th John Doe support because it might, might be used for bad purposes. Meanwhile the bad things that are reported can result in a blacklash lawsuit. Democrats again, chucking the baby out with the bathwater, all for political correctness.
Who votes for these absolute morons?
I believe the threat of Viking terrorism is pretty well past; the last great pitched battle between Vikings and “other folks” happened in the spring of 1014 at a place called Clontarf, outside Dublin, and the Irish whupped them Vikings.
(That’s why they’ve never been to the Super Bowl.)
NADB
OH BOO HOO! I feel so sorry for you.
Someone calls you on how wrong and pointless the rhetoric your spreading is and you pout, gather up your toys, and go home.
Face it - the passing of those resolutions is wrong and pointless.
The ones passing the resolutions are elected officials who were elected to do a job that has nothing to do with the federal issue of impeachment. The elected officials passing the resolutions may represent the people in their districts on the local issues but those officials were not elect to voice their opinion on federal issues.
Did it ever occur to you that some people who voted for those elected officials at the local level do NOT share the same view as them on a federal level??!!
You say that you find out all the facts before you decide on an issue. So it baffles me how you can completely ignore the basic fact that the elected officials who pass these resolutions were acting outside of the scope as to why and for what they were elected for.
The only conclusion I can come up with is that you think it is ok for them to act this way because you agree with their message!!!!
And that, my fellow blogger, is being not being smart or as you put it “not dumb”. What that type of thinking is mindless and myopic.
mark a
“Fair enough. That was sloppy of me to focus on one line and ignore the larger meaning of your post. But you must admit, it wasnt as bad as changing “Im NOT the one who pisses my pants…” to “Im the one who pisses my pants…” That was willful slander.”
I dont’ know if it was sloppy or not maybe you jsut got caught up in the moment. No harm done. As for Matt’s editting - that definitely was sloppy! But ‘willful slander’? (first it would be libel not slander - libel is basicaly defamatory speech in writing and slander is defamatory speech spoken) so willful libel? I don’t know. For Matt to think that he can omit such an important word in the phrase when it is easily shown to be the opposite - he would have to think that everyone who reads this blog is an idiot….now he might just think that but me thinks he was just overzealous and sloppy in his reading…so no, I don’t think it rises to ‘willful’ but it sure is down there with not very smart.
NADB
OH BOO HOO! I feel so sorry for you.
And that, my fellow blogger, is being not being smart or as you put it “not dumb”. What that type of thinking is mindless and myopic.
For someone with the moniker “marketplace of ideas,” you sure weren’t very receptive to what NADB had to say. She made valid points, and did so in a respectful manner. You disagreed with her, and made some valid points of your own, but why did you do it in such a nasty way? It seems that your marketplace is only open to ideas with which you agree.
I hope NADB’s “see ya” was only for yesterday, or maybe for the remainder of the week. It would be a shame to lose yet another thoughtful Kersten blogger to rudeness.
ENF
OH BOO HOO to you too. As if free speech is suppose to be polite and respectful. Free speech is just that FREE. It doesn’t have to be any else.
That is one of my issues with people and free speech. Free speech is suppose to offend sometimes, it is suppose to be distasteful at times. It is not always going to be nice. Obviously you are part of the “be nice” free speech crowd when it suits your purpose.
I was offended by NADB little rhetoric about unproven conspiracies involving the President of the United States. But hey in your view NADB’s type of disrespectful free speech is ok and my disrespectful free speech is not. I have news for you EBF - both are free speech.
As for your argument as to ‘valid points’ - my whole point was that her point was invalid!!! Local politicans should stick to the scope of their purview. And that purview is NOT to take a stand on a federal issue for the whole city. Its to take a stand on city issues for the whole city. Nothing more.
Re-read my blogs and you’ll see that - unless of course you are myopic also.
As for NADB being gone - if she is gone - thats two bad - but she should have a enough guts to stand up and take what she dishes out. If she wants to play in the kitchen she should be able to stand the heat. If she cant’ run with the big dogs than she shoud stay on the porch. If she can’t stand the game the stay on the sidelines.
Furthermore,
NADB moniker put her intelligence on the table. If she professing that she is “not dumb” then she should live up to that or expect to be called on it.
As Mark A. says - I call them like I see them.
Me thinks that she has a major chip on her shoulder because she put that moniker out there and then is offended when someone calls her on it.
By the way - feel free to call me not smart all you want - my own worth on intelligence and for that matter on everything can’t be downgraded by what you or anyone else says.
ENF
That’s EBF.
Free speech is suppose to offend sometimes, it is suppose to be distasteful at times.
You seem to have mastered that aspect of it.
But hey in your view NADB’s type of disrespectful free speech is ok and my disrespectful free speech is not.
You are trying to distinguish between speech you find offensive because of what is said vs. speech that is delivered in an offensive way. NADB did not call you names or belittle you. I have no problem with what you said — note that I have not weighed in on whether or not I agree with what you said, although I did say you made valid points — rather, the it was the way you said it that I found offensive – especially because it made someone decide to leave the forum.
As for your argument as to ‘valid points’ - my whole point was that her point was invalid!
I’m not getting into that discussion. My issue is with your tone, not your content. I understand the points you made; I do not need to reread your posts.
As for myopia, I don’t believe that I am inflicted with that particular ailment. Then again, I don’t normally call people names and ridicule them when the ideas they post don’t fit into my little “marketplace.” Perhaps you should reconsider your screen name; “marketplace of ideas” would appear to be a misnomer for someone like you who clearly has no respect for the ideas of others.
NADB moniker put her intelligence on the table. If she professing that she is “not dumb” then she should live up to that or expect to be called on it.
NADB made good points in defense of her opinions. Just because you disagree with her opinion doesn’t mean she’s dumb.
I think a good moniker for you, moi, would be something like “Big Fat Bully.”
EBF
“misnomer for someone like you who clearly has no respect for the ideas of others.”
Wow for someone who is trying to take the ‘high road’ you sure seem to be taking shots at me.
For a little lesson EBF — One who believes in Free Speech and the Marketplace of Ideas doesn’t have to respect another’s idea. They just have to respect that the other person can have a different idea no matter how different it is from theirs. But they sure don’t have to respect that idea.
Do you understand the difference?
And if you don’t see the difference or you don’t see that you are taking shots at me then you are AFFLICTED with being myopic. (BTW - look up the difference betweeen inflicted and afflicted. Where as my error of ENF instead of EBF was a typo shows I am a poor typistt - the keys are right next to each other. Your error in word choice shows that you don’t know the meaning of the word which tends to show…)
EBF
You keep doing what you accuse me of doing. You aren’t being very nice. I guess we both have to change our names under your scenerio.
What do you keep missing. NADB did not make valid points!! She professed unproven theories about the President of the United States. Then she professed that it is ok for local politicians to use their local pulpit - given to them by the local voters for local issues - to voice their opinion on federal issues.
Why you can’t see that is wrong is beyond me. But hey you as well as NADB, are entitle to your opinion no matter how misguided, wrong and pointless it is. But here is a news flash - I don’t have to agree with it, I don’t have to respect it, I don’t even have to respect you - I just have to respect that you and everyone has the right to vioce their opinion!
(And please note - I think it is completely alright for the individual elected persons who passed the resolutions to vioce their personal opinions as personal opinions - becasue that is what free speech is. What it is not right is for those elected officials to spout their personal opinions as collective opinions for the places they are representing when they were not elected to do so.)
One who believes in Free Speech and the Marketplace of Ideas doesn’t have to respect another’s idea. They just have to respect that the other person can have a different idea no matter how different it is from theirs. But they sure don’t have to respect that idea.
Do you understand the difference?
Then why did you attack NADB personally? I think it is you who does not understand the difference. You turned a good debate into a personal attack.
BTW - look up the difference betweeen inflicted and afflicted.
I know the difference. I was typing quickly and used the wrong word. I’d apologize, but I don’t respect you enough to do so; I’ll go so far as to admit the error. Considering the poor English I frequently see on this blog, an error or two on my part seems pretty minor. You understood what I meant, which was the important thing.
You keep doing what you accuse me of doing. You aren’t being very nice.
“Free speech is suppose to offend sometimes, it is suppose to be distasteful at times. It is not always going to be nice.”
I guess we both have to change our names under your scenerio.
At least my moniker has the word “evil” in it.
NADB did not make valid points!!
They were valid to her, and perhaps to others who read them.
Why you can’t see that is wrong is beyond me.
I never said whether or not I agreed with NADB. Opining that her points were valid does not imply agreement with them. Don’t put words in my mouth, BFB.
But hey you as well as NADB, are entitle to your opinion no matter how misguided, wrong and pointless it is.
That’s right, we are. “For a little lesson BFB — One who believes in Free Speech and the Marketplace of Ideas doesn’t have to respect another’s idea. They just have to respect that the other person can have a different idea no matter how different it is from theirs.”
I don’t have to agree with it, I don’t have to respect it, I don’t even have to respect you
Of course not; asking you to stick to debating the ideas and avoiding personal attacks is not asking you to agree with or respect any idea or person. Likewise, no one has to agree with your opinion, respect your opinion, or even respect you. You’ve done a good job here ensuring that outcome.
EBF
Touche on the ‘evil’ comment
BTW - I don’t believe the word ‘valid’ means what you think it means.
Because under your definition apparently valid means no matter how unsupported by facts it is and how revolting the idea.
Seeing that in the past you have furvently came out in support of gay marriage. Let me ask you this -
Are following statements, in your opinion, valid?
Gay marriage is wrong - plain and simple. We should make sure that noone from the same sex is allowed to marry. Countless americans feel the same way I do so - therefore my view is correct. In addition, the bible says it is wrong - therefore gay marriage is wrong.
Under your definition of valid - these statements should be valid to you.
don’t believe the word ‘valid’ means what you think it means.
From Webster’s New World Dictionary:
valid, adj. 1. having legal force. 2. based on evidence or sound reasoning.
NADB’s opinions were valid to the point she was trying to make. That is my opinion. You are free to disagree.
Gay marriage is wrong - plain and simple. We should make sure that no one from the same sex is allowed to marry. Countless americans feel the same way I do so - therefore my view is correct. In addition, the bible says it is wrong - therefore gay marriage is wrong.
They are valid opinions to some people, but not to me. In my opinion, these statements are not based on sound reasoning. Based on the statements you provided, the opinion that “gay marriage is wrong - plain and simple” is based on feelings, which are subjective, and religious beliefs, which are based in myth (remember, I’m an atheist). I see no evidence or sound reasoning here.
BTW - I don’t believe the word ‘valid’ means what you think it means.
Because under your definition apparently valid means no matter how unsupported by facts it is and how revolting the idea.
Oh, under the definition of “valid” in my last post, there’s nothing precluding something revolting from being valid.
I can see we are debating two different things.
Valid opinions and opinions that are valid.
One only requires the opinion to be an opinion to be valid and the other requires the opinion to be based on evidence and sound reasoning to be valid.
so - i agree - NADB has a valid opinion because it is her opinion therefore valid. However, she does not have an opinion that is valid because it is not based on evidence or sound reasoning.
Thanks for the debate - I am going to spend the rest of the day on the other blog.
However, she does not have an opinion that is valid because it is not based on evidence or sound reasoning.
That may be true. Or maybe you just can’t see that her opinion is based on evidence or sound reasoning because you disagree with it. I guess we’ll never know.
However, she does not have an opinion that is valid because it is not based on evidence or sound reasoning.
One last thing — this still wasn’t grounds to attack NADB personally (”Sounds more like a post from “ADB” not “NADB””). You owe her an apology.
Hi, all,
Maybe people’s tempers are up because of the heat - which is wearying - and maybe some of us just rub each other the wrong way. However, I do think we could use a large dose of adult civility here. EBF and I, for instance, have disagreed profoundly on a couple of things, but I can’t recall that EBF has ever been uncivil, or disrespectful to me as a person.
I think it would also help for us to proofread out posts before we send them, to weed out typos, and sometimes reorganize our prose so it flows better.
Hi again, all,
See! - I proofread, but still had a typo, “out” for “our.”
Of course we have the privilege to speak our minds, but I have found that courtesy goes a long way, and discourtesy accomplishes practicaly nothing most of the time.
My opinions regarding our president are based on facts recorded by the government, the media and the business community. I don’t have time to round up supporting documents (I have a job), but the following link provides an overview of his business dealings.
http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/2002/Bush_Harken.html
I respect the president when he does something to earn it, not because he has a certain job title. Unfortunately, this one hasn’t earned it.
Getting back to the topic, it’s hard to believe that democrat leaders are trying to kill this common sense idea to protect “John Doe’s” from lawsuits. This is just more proof that you can’t trust democrats with our national security.
“This is just more proof that you can’t trust democrats with our national security.”
Blah, blah, blah……
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Katherine Kersten writes a weekly column for the Star Tribune's Sunday Opinion Exchange section. The column covers a broad range of topics reflecting her experiences and interests.
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